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Thread: Switching between a dot and irons on a defensive pistol

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I don’t believe “ shot calling / low prob shooting / on the move - moving / visual focal shifts” will ever be as good with irons as with a dot, no matter how much effort you put into it.
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  2. #42
    @Clusterfrack

    To continue our discussion about ACSS type rings, what I would like to see in the future is multi emitter reticles so that the outer locating ring / reticle could be a different brightness or color than the center aiming dot.

    That way you could have a larger virtual window with a slim optic but brain could track better without ambiguity.

    I could see something even with a graded dim yellow outer with a bright red dot in center.
    Pointing at cardboard things....

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    You do bring up a good point that transitioning from irons to red dots is hard enough, I would definitely recommend minimizing the variables and going from iron sights to red dots on a platform you are already familiar with.
    My limited (so far) experience was that I really didn't have much transition struggle. After shooting a 5" M&P every week for about two years I got a 5" M&P with a dot on it and was actually left sorta wondering what was the big transition struggle everyone was talking about. I also had apparently developed a decent press-out presentation. All of this resulting in doing pretty well with it the first day out, doing our normal weekly informal timed drills, mostly on steel. It also hasn't left me feeling like a fish out of water when I do not use one.

    One thing I experienced is it made the biggest difference on what I am the lamest at, weak hand shooting. It really did transform my week hand shooting. Some of this could be monovision with my weak side eye being near vision, and until recently I typically shot pistols without corrective glasses.

  4. #44
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    That's a really great idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    @Clusterfrack

    To continue our discussion about ACSS type rings, what I would like to see in the future is multi emitter reticles so that the outer locating ring / reticle could be a different brightness or color than the center aiming dot.

    That way you could have a larger virtual window with a slim optic but brain could track better without ambiguity.

    I could see something even with a graded dim yellow outer with a bright red dot in center.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I don’t believe “ shot calling / low prob shooting / on the move - moving / visual focal shifts” will ever be as good with irons as with a dot, no matter how much effort you put into it.
    Nope but folks with good irons skills will keep the gap respectably narrow-er.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  6. #46
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    If it's a problem it's going to be a real issue if someone can't see well enough to get a visual reference from their sights. There's no way around irons not working with your eyeballs.

    If someone struggles going back to irons outside that constraint, it's likely they were never taught or realized the best way to use irons on a pistol in the first place.

    It's harder to maintain a target focus and get X ring accuracy at 25 yards, but in defensive use of a pistol where we are typically shooting at much closer distances, target focused shooting with the sights in the eyeline works pretty well.

    While I'm not going to say it's never happened, it's pretty damn rare to find a pistol gunfight where somebody didn't make hits because of their sights.
    3/15/2016

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    That's a really great idea.
    I solve problems for a living and formally trained a long time to get good at knowing what I have and knowing what is missing.

    It makes picking up technical hobbies and optimizing equipment and ergonomics easier for me than most people.
    Pointing at cardboard things....

  8. #48
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmc45414 View Post
    My limited (so far) experience was that I really didn't have much transition struggle. After shooting a 5" M&P every week for about two years I got a 5" M&P with a dot on it and was actually left sorta wondering what was the big transition struggle everyone was talking about. I also had apparently developed a decent press-out presentation.
    There you go.

    And the thing that made it a decent press out presentation is that you got the gun up to your eyeline early and presented the gun level towards the target long enough to see your sights and work the trigger. That means you had already drilled a draw that put you looking through the rear notch...which is exactly the same set of things you need to do to find a dot reliably under all manner of conditions.

    Unfortunately for many people the electronic gizmo on top of the gun is the first real coach they've ever had on their drawstroke. And that's why people go nuts for them. It's like giving an abused puppy some bacon.
    3/15/2016

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    There you go.

    And the thing that made it a decent press out presentation is that you got the gun up to your eyeline early and presented the gun level towards the target long enough to see your sights and work the trigger. That means you had already drilled a draw that put you looking through the rear notch...which is exactly the same set of things you need to do to find a dot reliably under all manner of conditions.

    Unfortunately for many people the electronic gizmo on top of the gun is the first real coach they've ever had on their drawstroke. And that's why people go nuts for them. It's like giving an abused puppy some bacon.
    Early to eye line and driving the dot to the target spot is one way, with the other being to use your index to present the pistol to a spot, at which point the dot appears. I used to be in the early eye line camp, but lately have migrated to index. Believe this falls into art not science, but the direct presentation sets me up to shoot better successive shots.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #50
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Switching between a dot and irons on a defensive pistol

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Early to eye line and driving the dot to the target spot is one way, with the other being to use your index to present the pistol to a spot, at which point the dot appears. I used to be in the early eye line camp, but lately have migrated to index. Believe this falls into art not science, but the direct presentation sets me up to shoot better successive shots.
    Direct index draw is how I’ve done it for a long time (unless there’s a reason to draw to retention). Recently I’ve been experimenting with a hybrid approach. The gun comes up to eyeline maybe 2/3 of the way out, and I get a flash of dot a little earlier. I’m finding it’s not slower, and possibly helps fine tune dot alignment.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

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