Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 83

Thread: Switching between a dot and irons on a defensive pistol

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    A touch of a small anecdote.

    Yesterday we ran the following match:



    The time was 4:00 PM and bright sun. The stages were oriented North with the sun to the west. Given the distances, most folks thought it was such that you really didn't need intensive use of sights as holding the guns straight out with a reasonable index on the targets would do it. In my squad, three folks had RDS on smaller guns - 365s. One of them DQ'ed. However, the other two commented that at these distances the RDS wasn't any use. Going for the dot picture as compared to just getting the gun aligned from the draw slowed them down and in the bright sun, the dot was of that much use. The small window bothered them.

    For example, one of the top guys (365 RDS) who came in second as he is very fast, had 35 Alphas and 6 C's. Old me with a 3rd Gen G26 with Trijicon 3 dot night sights had 41 As and 3 C's. The best was 42 As. I'm slower as I always say. For instance, the fast guy shoots a stage in 11 sec. Me - 14. I move slowly.

    Now, the issue as I see it - is if this is defensive shooting, are the C's acceptable on DA STRETZ? Missing may lead to not 'stopping' the opponent or hitting a good guy. One of the guys towards the top had 19 Cs. In some trials with ambiguous shoots, the missed shot, threatening innocents, was taken to indicate reckless behavior and evil intent.

    Thus, a small defensive usage test. Two guys, close up, sunny day - good shooters who used RDS on full sized pistols - say the small RDS close up was not useful and perhaps a handicap.

    Funny match fun -

    One stage we had to manipulate a baby hostage. I've done this before and got my picture on a Tom Given's newsletter way back when doing this. The baby was a stuffed elephant. I opined it was save the baby Republican. The question was how to stash the baby when moving, reloading. Between your legs, balanced on your head, under your arms. Not realistic ways to hold a real baby (as we fathers might know). I wear suspenders due to back problems and came up with the solution of tucking the elephant under the straps. Wouldn't work with a real baby. No one dropped the baby.

    One DQ for a guy who didn't clear the chamber at the end of his run and fired a round when told to show clear. Just dropped the mag. One guy quit as his reloads wouldn't run.

    The mag problem. Ok, we are shooting small guns with small gun carry gear. No match mag setups. This seemed to be a problem for some. With match gear, your mags may be spaced apart, large and easy to grab. Folks grab them with speed. However, with the small guns, I saw, once in awhile: Failure to get the mag in the wall. Grabbing the mag and then throwing it away as you grabbed too fast with the small grip. Then, grabbing the first mag first - throwing it away and at the same time, snagging the second mag and throwing that on the ground.

    Lots of reload planning as USPSA paradigm. Probably wouldn't do that on DA STREETZ. Avoiding slide lock is a thing, not like IDPA.

    Glenn, a few comments.

    In terms of splatter/phantom dots in low sun angles, I have observed it with the SRO, RMR, Acro, DP Pro, Romeo 1 Pro and different Holosun models. The only optics where I have not observed it, are the Sig Romeo 3 Max/XL (competition optics not suitable for EDC) and the RMS Shield family. Where splatter and phantom dots can especially confuse you, is when you have a smaller moa dot, and the splatter is similar in size. I have not had the same issue with the 6.5 RMR, the 8 moa 407 CO, the 6 moa 407K and using the large circle with 5 series Holosun optics.

    In terms of testing, we can set up a test that gives a specific result, although that might not be representative of a whole envelope of use. For example, very close large targets at bad breath distance vs smaller steel at longer distance vs moving targets vs lower light conditions. I do agree that a dot is not much of an advantage, and possibly a disadvantage on targets like you referenced. However there are work arounds, like the Holosun circle reticle, using the frame of the optic for sighting, or using the BUIS.

    I agree that smaller pistols can be harder to shoot. Reasons include smaller size, more perceived recoil, poorer sights and less sight radius. For these reasons, while it requires more skill, I think that the red dot is especially attractive on smaller pistols since sight radius becomes irrelevant and you can have an exact zero. I did a walk back drill with Darryl ten days ago, and watched him go 4/4 on an eight inch steel at 35 yards, support hand only with a 365XL and a 407K.

    Sometimes, folks seem to skimp on their small pistol support gear, and end up with less than desirable holsters and mag pouches. I would argue the support gear is especially important on the small gun if you want to bring out its potential.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #62
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    Idaho
    Hey, I admit I don’t know beans about defensive shooting. I am not LE, have not taken any tactical shooting training, and what I know about human anatomy can be counted on one hand. I’m just a guy that likes to play games with guns.

    That said, comparing a USPSA target with its A, C, and D zones and wondering if a C-zone hit is going to make a diff in da streetz seems like it is missing the point. I don’t know anybody that looks at USPSA, IDPA, or any of the gun games as ‘defensive training’ or preparation for the apocalypse. And other than better than average gun handling, a cool flip and catch when unloading, and the ability to shoot fast and accurate it probably won’t help much in real life.

    I also don’t think “best two on cardboard” is going to cut it in real life. I suspect in the mean streetz of the real world we’d keep shooting until the threat stops/falls, be it 1, 2, 6 shots or until the gun goes to slide lock.

    But oh man, how ‘bout dem splits?

  3. #63
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Erie County, NY
    Well, several things:

    The report of usage aren't my opinion but what two shooters said. Two shooter is too small a sample for anything. I appreciate the analyses of their reports by our experts. I'm going to run an SRO and I will see how it works for me with appropriate practice. Will I switch to one on my EDC semi. I don't know.

    Second, the game aspect. I've done for a FOG hobbyist (thanks, HCM ) a fair amount of SD oriented training with lots of Karl Rehn, Ayoob, Insights, Givens, Spaulding, etc. attending the old NTI three times, and Givens conference (I regret I can't go anymore due to family caretaking responsibilities).

    That being said, I've played IDPA and some other venues for about 20 years. I'm quite aware they are a game so that comment is useless. Recently to what's near, I'm taking up USPSA. I took up firearms for SD usage as compared to sport with a friend whose life was threatened by some truly for real skilled folks. My personal emphasis of owning guns is SD, the fun sports and friendships made are great side effects. But they are side effects such as when I lifted weights with buddies.

    Thus, I regard the 'games' as trigger time practice for reasonable SD shooting skills. I shoot guns that are reasonable for actually carry. My foray into RDS is still with a reasonable gun for carry. Of course, I pay attention to the rules and play the game - as with planning reloads that you would never do on DA STREETZ. However, I am in the mode of John Daub's analysis that Karl presented on in his blog (get John's book - BTW, John has 'eliminated me' and I should have known better in FOF). Here's a quote and emphasis:

    An update to John Daub's eBook "Drills, Qualifications, Standards, & Tests" – including the Minimum Competency Assessment – is available for download from the KR Training website. www.krtraining.com

    In 2013 John published his original work on Minimum Competency for Defensive Pistol. At TacCon22 he lead a discussion on the topic of Minimum Competency. There he presented his original work along with his recent thinking on the topic. He introduced a Minimum Competency Assessment as an attempt to quantify his evolving thinking. For example, while "multiple hits" remains in the definition, he now believes the draw-to-first-acceptable-hit (DTFAH) skill needs to be emphasized. In this update to DQS&T, John presents the Assessment and his thinking behind every bit of it: target selection, par times, distances, equipment, biases, uncertainties, etc. Give it a read and join John's exploration of this topic.
    Thus, if you have my view of making the game shots reasonable STREEZ practice while playing the game - two Cs are not acceptable and playing the speed/accuracy trade off for a time advantage in scoring isn't for me.

    Let's look at a comparison of an anatomical target and a USPSA target. Note where the Cs fall. I also took Dr. Williams anatomical shooting class and John was in there and wrote it up in his HSOI blog. I think that that knowledge influences his first shot opinion. Now, two C's have the majority of their area (not the upper torso, neck) in regions that probably are less effective.

    Name:  anatomical vs. Uspsa target.jpg
Views: 188
Size:  17.8 KB

    If I am fighting for my life and without going into much personal history, facing folks like the racist killer at TOPS is not an insignificant probability. Thus, again two C's don't cut it in practice. You shoot crappy enough under stress not to try for the real deal in training or gaming. Time is important but not at the cost of needed accuracy. I note I'm pretty good out of the holster, my slow downs aren't that move.

    Similarly, in my new home town (which was an old home town - why we are here again), the brave security guard and retired officer at TOPS engaged the shooter and his shots were ineffective due to body armor. From what I read he was a truly good guy. With SD training, transitioning to failure to stop targeting is an important asset for you to have. Did that with responsive targets at the NTI and with Rehn with a guest instructor from Austin SWAT. One of our members, John Hearne makes wonderful realistic targets. That kind of move should be at a level of unconscious competence.

    I once asked something about why USPSA didn't have some targets be Mozambiques as in IDPA and someone had a big shit fit about this is not part of the GAME - hair on fire!! You can shoot at the head if you want but that will SLOW you down.

    Anyway, that's my world view of the games and what they do for me. Of course, I know they are a game. However, one can't find monthly simunitions FOF classes. I make what I can from them for skills practice and fun.

  4. #64
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    I once asked something about why USPSA didn't have some targets be Mozambiques as in IDPA and someone had a big shit fit about this is not part of the GAME - hair on fire!! You can shoot at the head if you want but that will SLOW you down.
    Well, that person didn’t understand USPSA or hit factor scoring. One thing we can learn from competitive shooting (easier to do with a dot) is how important it is to adjust the “scoring” region for each target and distance.

    Eg. This target at 5 yds vs 20 yds. Do you spend the time required to shoot 2 A in both cases?

    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  5. #65
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Erie County, NY
    By time, I'm not saying that that one stands there like a Bullseye shooter contemplating each shot. You need to shoot with reasonable speed. You need to learn to get a fast, good sight picture at least for the first shot. Hence, I will see how the dot goes for me. One of the 365 RDS shooters when we were talking - said that he though the dot was good for such 20 year distances on his full sized gun. But our discussion was the close up shot.

    Hopefully, I won't have 20 yard gun fights. I did work in a building where the corridor was 100 yards. Might want to use sights there.

    I will opine that two Cs on a target at five yards are not acceptable for SD applications. In the match, the 4th guy shot 23 As, 19 Cs, 1 D, 1 M. If he did not have one A on a target - that's a screw up at 5 yards for what I want to do. Folks can flame me for not having a game emphasis.

    Is this like sport Judo vs. fighting as an analogy?

  6. #66
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia
    Two Cs on a target at five yards are not acceptable for USPSA either, if you want to win matches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    By time, I'm not saying that that one stands there like a Bullseye shooter contemplating each shot. You need to shoot with reasonable speed. You need to learn to get a fast, good sight picture at least for the first shot. Hence, I will see how the dot goes for me. One of the 365 RDS shooters when we were talking - said that he though the dot was good for such 20 year distances on his full sized gun. But our discussion was the close up shot.

    Hopefully, I won't have 20 yard gun fights. I did work in a building where the corridor was 100 yards. Might want to use sights there.

    I will opine that two Cs on a target at five yards are not acceptable for SD applications. In the match, the 4th guy shot 23 As, 19 Cs, 1 D, 1 M. If he did not have one A on a target - that's a screw up at 5 yards for what I want to do. Folks can flame me for not having a game emphasis.

    Is this like sport Judo vs. fighting as an analogy?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #67
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Erie County, NY
    My dad didn't like two C's on my report card either. I heard about that. Screwed up a math test and no dinner had to go to my room and study. So I propose no beer and pizza after a match if you shoot two Cs at 5 yards.

    Wanted to shoot Steel tomorrow but it's going to rain. Now steel is a pure game and fun - however, it's trigger time and transition between target practice with your sights. Was going to shoot a Buckmark with a fiber optic - lots of fun.

  8. #68
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    In the match, the 4th guy shot 23 As, 19 Cs, 1 D, 1 M.
    That's around 75% of possible points. 90 to 95% is where serious USPSA competitors want to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    My dad didn't like two C's on my report card either. I heard about that. Screwed up a math test and no dinner had to go to my room and study. So I propose no beer and pizza after a match if you shoot two Cs at 5 yards.
    No pizza for him!

    NOTE: we should probably get this thread back on track before the #shitmods get on our case...
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  9. #69
    Glenn, the SRO's advantage for EDC is the large window and relative toughness. The downside is auto doesn't work well, meaning you need to run it and manual, and you are subject to a phantom dot in low sun angles. Same footprint, but the Holosun 407CO is a pretty good optic.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #70
    I just wanted to say I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread. So much good information.

    In my very narrow lane (shooting steel with dots and irons - *only for performance/not defensive shooting*), I’ve had no real difficulty maintaining my irons proficiency. I’m obviously faster with the dot, but I still have relatively comparable times. I know none of us are this guy, but I believe Nils just won the World Speed Shooting title in CO and did pretty dang well with irons (I think Limited). Yes, he’s a freak, but I think maintaining your irons skills for something like SCSA should be pretty doable with maybe 1 irons day per week or a few minutes per session. USPSA could certainly be more challenging and require a different approach, I don’t know. This season in SCSA (I’ll start competing later this month-October), I’ll be running 2 dot guns and 1 irons gun. I’ll track my performance, see what the data shows, and might bump this thread with what I discover.
    Last edited by Kirk; 05-15-2022 at 02:56 PM.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •