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Thread: Switching between a dot and irons on a defensive pistol

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Early to eye line and driving the dot to the target spot is one way, with the other being to use your index to present the pistol to a spot, at which point the dot appears. I used to be in the early eye line camp, but lately have migrated to index. Believe this falls into art not science, but the direct presentation sets me up to shoot better successive shots.
    I have tried both, and getting the gun on target fast, then cleaning up the sight picture has worked better for me. I wasn't any faster trying to get the dot to my eyes early.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    The gun comes up to eyeline maybe 2/3 of the way out, and I get a flash of dot a little earlier. Iím finding itís not slower, and possibly helps fine tune dot alignment.
    Thatís what I do. With a good index, I pick up the dot towards the last 1/3 of press out.

    I could break a shot on the way out if I wanted to (or had to), or I can micro refine the remainder of the press out to predictively hit the target at full extension without delay.

    Itís by definition faster and more accurate than index and reaction.

    Pointing at cardboard things....

  3. #53
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Thatís what I do. With a good index, I pick up the dot towards the last 1/3 of press out.

    I could break a shot on the way out if I wanted to (or had to), or I can micro refine the remainder of the press out to predictively hit the target at full extension without delay.

    Itís by definition faster and more accurate than index and reaction.
    I started doing this after a conversation with @JCN.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  4. #54
    I really do believe there is no one right answer. I have so much press out in my wood pile, that my default is to try to see the dot earlier and drop it in onto the target. However, when I extend by index, I have better lock up for successive shots.

    Today, I filmed four draws to a steel ó the first two using index and the last two doing more of a press out where the dot drops onto the target. They are all within a tenth or so of each other, so one can balance the benefit of seeing the dot earlier versus being extended. The second index draw is creeping toward the hybrid Cluster referenced.

    When I was more fast draw focused, I could induce a stoppage in some strikers drawing faster than .60, which I associated with firing the shot before full extension, which is another benefit of an index presentation.

    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I started doing this after a conversation with @JCN.
    Well that explains that similarity then.

    I should note that on hard targets where you need extra stability it doesnít matter because youíre going to be holding and stabilizing at the end anyway. So there wouldnít really be a difference in time for technique for a shot like that because itís dwarfed by the extra 2-3 tenths of required stability.

    It really only comes into play when youíre talking about 0.6-0.7s draws to close targets (or wide transitions with press out). There it saves a tenth or so, which at some level of performance is an eternity.

    You can see in the slow mo in the middle of the video, it cuts time off the draw and the reload.

    You can also tell from when the shot breaks itís predictive rather than reactive.

    You can also tell that Iíve picked up the dot and started shooting before the end of the press out. Because I saw it and I can go.



    You can get by with reactive draws and splits, but youíll ultimately get your lunch handed to you by people with good mechanics.
    Pointing at cardboard things....

  6. #56
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    A touch of a small anecdote.

    Yesterday we ran the following match:

    The mini match consists of (3) stages with targets no greater than 15' away and courses of fire with an 18 round maximum. This match is intended to enable practice with our everyday compact carry guns with a barrel length no-greater than 3.5 inches. You will need an IWB/OWB holster that fully covers the trigger and enough magazines to execute courses of fire up to 18 rounds.
    The time was 4:00 PM and bright sun. The stages were oriented North with the sun to the west. Given the distances, most folks thought it was such that you really didn't need intensive use of sights as holding the guns straight out with a reasonable index on the targets would do it. In my squad, three folks had RDS on smaller guns - 365s. One of them DQ'ed. However, the other two commented that at these distances the RDS wasn't any use. Going for the dot picture as compared to just getting the gun aligned from the draw slowed them down and in the bright sun, the dot was of that much use. The small window bothered them.

    For example, one of the top guys (365 RDS) who came in second as he is very fast, had 35 Alphas and 6 C's. Old me with a 3rd Gen G26 with Trijicon 3 dot night sights had 41 As and 3 C's. The best was 42 As. I'm slower as I always say. For instance, the fast guy shoots a stage in 11 sec. Me - 14. I move slowly.

    Now, the issue as I see it - is if this is defensive shooting, are the C's acceptable on DA STRETZ? Missing may lead to not 'stopping' the opponent or hitting a good guy. One of the guys towards the top had 19 Cs. In some trials with ambiguous shoots, the missed shot, threatening innocents, was taken to indicate reckless behavior and evil intent.

    Thus, a small defensive usage test. Two guys, close up, sunny day - good shooters who used RDS on full sized pistols - say the small RDS close up was not useful and perhaps a handicap.

    Funny match fun -

    One stage we had to manipulate a baby hostage. I've done this before and got my picture on a Tom Given's newsletter way back when doing this. The baby was a stuffed elephant. I opined it was save the baby Republican. The question was how to stash the baby when moving, reloading. Between your legs, balanced on your head, under your arms. Not realistic ways to hold a real baby (as we fathers might know). I wear suspenders due to back problems and came up with the solution of tucking the elephant under the straps. Wouldn't work with a real baby. No one dropped the baby.

    One DQ for a guy who didn't clear the chamber at the end of his run and fired a round when told to show clear. Just dropped the mag. One guy quit as his reloads wouldn't run.

    The mag problem. Ok, we are shooting small guns with small gun carry gear. No match mag setups. This seemed to be a problem for some. With match gear, your mags may be spaced apart, large and easy to grab. Folks grab them with speed. However, with the small guns, I saw, once in awhile: Failure to get the mag in the wall. Grabbing the mag and then throwing it away as you grabbed too fast with the small grip. Then, grabbing the first mag first - throwing it away and at the same time, snagging the second mag and throwing that on the ground.

    Lots of reload planning as USPSA paradigm. Probably wouldn't do that on DA STREETZ. Avoiding slide lock is a thing, not like IDPA.

  7. #57
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    A touch of a small anecdote.
    However, the other two commented that at these distances the RDS wasn't any use. Going for the dot picture as compared to just getting the gun aligned from the draw slowed them down and in the bright sun, the dot was of that much use.
    I have found I need higher brightness levels than most to reliably see a useful dot in bright sunlight. With the Acro P1, I need it on maximum power to see a comfortable dot when shooting outdoors. That turns into a starburst indoors, so I compromise with a 9 setting. I can still see that in bright light but indoors it doesn't turn into an unmanageably large starburst. Tuning brightness can be difficult.

    What I've seen most often under the conditions you describe (rising or late afternoon/setting sun) is that a lot of the Chinese manufactured optics start manifesting odd visual artifacts when the sunlight is hitting them from just the right angle. People get four dots in a diamond formation or something like that instead of a single dot, or they still get the normal aiming dot but there are ghost dots near it that are almost as bright. I've never encountered it with an Aimpoint and I've never seen anyone in class have that problem with an RMR...but Holosun and similar manufactured dots I've seen it happen with multiple times.


    Thus, a small defensive usage test. Two guys, close up, sunny day - good shooters who used RDS on full sized pistols - say the small RDS close up was not useful and perhaps a handicap.
    Perhaps.

    I'll throw in a confounding variable: The gun itself matters a lot, too.

    Small guns have small, cramped grips to make them more concealable.

    The entire reason a J frame is a bitch on stilts to use well is because the stocks on most concealment-oriented J frames are boot-style affairs that are meant to help the revolver fit into a pocket. That makes establishing a solid grip on the revolver much, much more difficult...and it's the grip that allows us to stabilize the gun as it tries to squirm under the torque being applied to the trigger. We're usually delivering force that is at least 10x the weight of the revolver on the trigger. That makes them really want to squirm. Then when we fire a shot, we have to let the trigger go all the way back out to reset...and that tends to induce a breaking of grip.

    If you carry a Glock 17 sized pistol with a Trijicon SRO and you practice with that setup a lot, you develop sub-conscious pacing and mannerisms with the gun. When you pick up a smaller gun that you don't put nearly as much trigger time into...which describes the vast majority of people carrying the P365s and the like...you have to break that and focus much more deliberately on things that the bigger gun lets you get away with.

    I'm in an unusual position because I'm regularly required to shoot a client's gun to rule out issues with the equipment itself. This often happens shortly after I've shot a demo and have made teaching points and my mind is trying to simultaneously watch the line, keep class pace, communicate with my other instructors and intelligently coach. This paired with trying to shoot an uncomfortably small pistol will, if not carefully paused for an intense focus on the fundamentals of firing an accurate shot with whatever tiny thing like a P365 I'm trying desperately to find purchase with for my hands, manifest in shooting like absolute shit.

    I never have problems finding the dot on a client's gun even though the window is smaller and the dot is usually not as bright as I'd like it to be for my use because their eyes work better. I do find that if I'm not extremely careful on how I apply pressure to the trigger on guns like the P365 and to a lesser extent the S&W shield, the gun likes to lurch to a different alignment after the trigger breaks. Once the trigger breaks the trigger continues to move in overtravel until it abruptly hits the limit of the trigger's movement. It's really easy to subconsciously increase pressure applied to the trigger at that point which will steer the gun if you don't have enough hand on the grip to stabilize it. (Which, on something like a P365, I don't) The trigger is still moving rearward as the striker is going forward start the firing cycle and this golden few milliseconds is where a lot of evil takes place, at least for me.

    I also find that my hands being the size that they are, I end up with my trigger finger actually making contact with some other part of one of my hands preventing a complete pull of the trigger. The trigger seems to "hang" and I end up smashing through the "hang" with predictable results.

    I'd love to do an A:B test with the same shooters on different days. Day 1, run them through a course of fire with their usual carry gun. Then the dotted smaller gun immediately after. Then a week or two later repeat the same exercise with their usual carry gun and immediately after the smaller non-dotted gun. I think the gap would be pretty much the same. It's possible not having a dot at all is enough of a system shock to stop trying to run at that subconscious level and focus and they'd shoot a lot better.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 05-13-2022 at 11:32 AM.
    3/15/2016

  8. #58
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    Just for info, when I shot a 642 in a similar match, it was roughly 26 As and 13 Cs. Have to look it up. Hadn't shot the 642 since the summer of 2019. I've shot Glocks for a year in Erie county when I finally got my permit. The 642 had a CT laser grip, didn't seem to really help that much but I don't have a comparison without it recently.

    The 26 grips works for me. When I rented a G43 once, it seemed squirmy.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    A touch of a small anecdote.

    Yesterday we ran the following match:



    The time was 4:00 PM and bright sun. The stages were oriented North with the sun to the west. Given the distances, most folks thought it was such that you really didn't need intensive use of sights as holding the guns straight out with a reasonable index on the targets would do it. In my squad, three folks had RDS on smaller guns - 365s. One of them DQ'ed. However, the other two commented that at these distances the RDS wasn't any use. Going for the dot picture as compared to just getting the gun aligned from the draw slowed them down and in the bright sun, the dot was of that much use. The small window bothered them.

    For example, one of the top guys (365 RDS) who came in second as he is very fast, had 35 Alphas and 6 C's. Old me with a 3rd Gen G26 with Trijicon 3 dot night sights had 41 As and 3 C's. The best was 42 As. I'm slower as I always say. For instance, the fast guy shoots a stage in 11 sec. Me - 14. I move slowly.

    Now, the issue as I see it - is if this is defensive shooting, are the C's acceptable on DA STRETZ? Missing may lead to not 'stopping' the opponent or hitting a good guy. One of the guys towards the top had 19 Cs. In some trials with ambiguous shoots, the missed shot, threatening innocents, was taken to indicate reckless behavior and evil intent.

    Thus, a small defensive usage test. Two guys, close up, sunny day - good shooters who used RDS on full sized pistols - say the small RDS close up was not useful and perhaps a handicap.
    Iíll echo @TCinVA in that most people shooting wise would be better off with a larger gun and a larger optic.

    And Iíll also echo that while your data is real dataÖ itís going to be contextual to the level of shooter and the particular equipment they used rather than the concept and application of dots in general.

    I am going to make the assumption that either their index or their optic settings / reticle were not optimized.

    I say this from the context of someone who at 15í thinks using a huge bright circle dot reticle helps quite a bit on a P365.

    Pointing at cardboard things....

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    If you carry a Glock 17 sized pistol with a Trijicon SRO and you practice with that setup a lot...
    In addition, a large window allows some presentation sloppiness like irons that might not hold up with a smaller window presentation.

    Actually for that reason, when training my wife I set up her dry practice gun with a small window to train good ergonomics while the live gun has a big window optic.

    That could be partially what happened to Glennís friends in training the other wayÖ large windows that exposed flaws when moving to small windows.
    Pointing at cardboard things....

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