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Thread: Factoring Recoil into the Equation of Reliability

  1. #1

    Factoring Recoil into the Equation of Reliability

    Several comments on this forum and others throughout the months and even years has made me consider the possibility that perhaps larger caliber service pistols might indirectly give the firearm a boost in reliability under certain conditions.

    For instance, in the famous thread on HKpro from 2012 where someone spoke one-on-one with an HK Armorer, the HK employee said this:

    "The USP45 is a gun that we pretty rarely see, we very seldom have one come in. The HK45 is rare too... Most of the 45 caliber guns will power through any operator error such as limpwristing. The .40's power through most of it as well. The guns we see in here probably the most are the USP9's and P30L's in 9mm... Those guns with 115gr ammo are pretty unforgiving when it comes to limpwristing. The heavier loads 124 and 147 forgive a little more."

    JTQ also echoed what I was wondering in a post of his own:
    Name:  usp45calvs9mm.jpg
Views: 564
Size:  12.7 KB

    In addition, a thought-provoking comment here:
    Name:  PF2.jpg
Views: 549
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    I've often wondered if having a slightly higher recoiling pistol trades a little bit of shootability for greater reliability, being able to power through muck and grime as well as being shot with a compromised grip from odd stances or injured hand.

    I put this in the Semi Auto Pistols section rather than Ammunition because while ammunition is a part of this equation, the real focus of the matter is the pistols themselves. It might be an academic consideration more than a practical one, but one I thought was interesting to consider nonetheless.

  2. #2
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    You can gain back the limpwristing resistance with 9mm shooting weak target ammo by using a lighter weight recoil spring.

    A gun is not a complete unit. Not changing the recoil springs to match your cartridges and use is like saying for a car “I’m only going to use the tires that came from the factory!”

  3. #3

    Springing

    I have noticed this to be more pronounced between a 40 and a 9 mm. While it is true that you can put a lighter spring on a 9 mm with lighter loads, that also would mean that it is a lighter spring to shove forward to strip the round out of the magazine and have it overcome extractor tension and get aligned with the chamber for feeding.

    Since the 40 requires a stiffer spring to absorb recoil it has a stiffer spring to push the next round into place.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    Several comments on this forum and others throughout the months and even years has made me consider the possibility that perhaps larger caliber service pistols might indirectly give the firearm a boost in reliability under certain conditions.

    For instance, in the famous thread on HKpro from 2012 where someone spoke one-on-one with an HK Armorer, the HK employee said this:

    "The USP45 is a gun that we pretty rarely see, we very seldom have one come in. The HK45 is rare too... Most of the 45 caliber guns will power through any operator error such as limpwristing. The .40's power through most of it as well. The guns we see in here probably the most are the USP9's and P30L's in 9mm... Those guns with 115gr ammo are pretty unforgiving when it comes to limpwristing. The heavier loads 124 and 147 forgive a little more."

    JTQ also echoed what I was wondering in a post of his own:
    Name:  usp45calvs9mm.jpg
Views: 564
Size:  12.7 KB

    In addition, a thought-provoking comment here:
    Name:  PF2.jpg
Views: 549
Size:  9.1 KB

    I've often wondered if having a slightly higher recoiling pistol trades a little bit of shootability for greater reliability, being able to power through muck and grime as well as being shot with a compromised grip from odd stances or injured hand.

    I put this in the Semi Auto Pistols section rather than Ammunition because while ammunition is a part of this equation, the real focus of the matter is the pistols themselves. It might be an academic consideration more than a practical one, but one I thought was interesting to consider nonetheless.
    Not really. When I was kinda new to shooting I had nothing but stove pipes with a 40.

    Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    You can gain back the limpwristing resistance with 9mm shooting weak target ammo by using a lighter weight recoil spring.

    A gun is not a complete unit. Not changing the recoil springs to match your cartridges and use is like saying for a car “I’m only going to use the tires that came from the factory!”
    Are we talking about competition shooting or racing/off roading? Cause if you're shooting standard factory loads there's no need to change specific springs. Just like driving in traffic there's no need for special tires.

    I buy ammo that's on sale and have never needed to change springs and factory tires have never given me problems.
    Last edited by 4RNR; 04-28-2022 at 09:34 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PX4 Storm Tracker View Post
    I have noticed this to be more pronounced between a 40 and a 9 mm. While it is true that you can put a lighter spring on a 9 mm with lighter loads, that also would mean that it is a lighter spring to shove forward to strip the round out of the magazine and have it overcome extractor tension and get aligned with the chamber for feeding.

    Since the 40 requires a stiffer spring to absorb recoil it has a stiffer spring to push the next round into place.

    What have noticed between .45, .40, 9mm in regard to limp wristing and reliability in the PX4?

  7. #7
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
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    I seem to recall that Todd thought it was a factor. I'm trying to find some of his comments on the subject...

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    I know I've seen guns get sluggish or stop working with standard pressure ammo of all weights that would then run as if perfectly lubed with 124+p. Should you let your gun get that bad in the first place? No.

    Except you're now getting far, far afield of what people are talking about when discussing how to make a defensive arm work as reliably as possible with the best possible defensive ammo. And I'd be the first to say that if I believed the 147gr load was meaningfully more effective at stopping someone's ability to harm me I'd go with that as my priority and not just "theoretically more reliable in a very narrow circumstance." But instead I happen to believe the 124+p has an edge in that area so I choose it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Another Rich I know says the exact same thing. His agency carried 9BPLE and then 124gr +p Gold Dot for their 92G Berettas. He'd see instances in which a dirty, dry, or otherwise abused pistol would fail to run properly with standard pressure practice ammo and then magically spring back to life and complete reliability on a mag full of the higher pressure duty ammo.
    Last edited by JSGlock34; 04-28-2022 at 09:46 PM.
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by 4RNR View Post
    Are we talking about competition shooting or racing/off roading? Cause if you're shooting standard factory loads there's no need to change specific springs. Just like driving in traffic there's no need for special tires.

    I buy ammo that's on sale and have never needed to change springs and factory tires have never given me problems.
    I was talking in the sense of a duty/defense pistol that you wouldn't be changing springs on, not a race gun

  9. #9
    I don't see how it's going to power through poor grip. If the frame is moving the slide isn't going to outrun it

    Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
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    A slide is essentially acting as the mass that needs to work in several factors. It’s essentially one option in the mechanics of the gun. A robust round with the velocity to overcome the shooter grip will probably feed the next cartridge.( depending if the magazine can feed at that velocity.)

    There is an optimal point depending on design of slides mass vs velocity with the grip acting as a stock to supply the sufficient forces to make everything work. Changing the recoil spring at lighter ammo might let you use a less robust grip. It all depends on the physics of it. Putting a weaker recoil spring in the gun to tune it to lower power ammo might make it susceptible to failure with heavier ammo. In my experience providing the feeding function is operating at the appropriate velocity. Is going to be what makes it reliable. There’s much more to a malfunction then the ammo. Ymmv

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