Stepping away from being a rifleman

[Le Français]

First off why is this a thread, second I hear a lot of excuses, as a professional end users and LE you should be taking your own time to rectify these gaps in training period.

For low light, there is no difference with the issue with a pistol or a long gun you are in plain clothes. You need to rectify this even for off duty stuff, Visi Blue makes a great product to address this that every LE should have

The long gun is a great tool and when it comes to the I think I'm going to need a gun I want a rifle period,

From a former professional LE gun toter. This and the Pistol RDS zero thread make me so sad about the state of this place and some of the loud voices here that quite frankly need to shut up.

This is so poorly written as to be nearly incomprehensible. I didn't realize you'd left LE (and GA, apparently), but I hope that you wrote better than this when you were in. Ultimately, LEOs can do a lot more good with a solid understanding of how to write than with the latest whiz-bang Glock compensator or LPVO. Just saying.

[Borderland]

I don't carry a long gun in a vehicle and never have. That's all wild west shit for bank robbers, hostage situations and cowboy cosplay. Granted, in some cases it may be needed, but the odds are unless you're a patrol officer you won't need it. Delegate and let your troops deal with it. That's why they gave you that job....bottom line.

[HCM]

Understood, makes sense.

I’ve worn jeans and t-shirts to work for the last 12 years, and will be doing it for at least another 15 years. I’m also a shit magnet, and the scenario of getting shot by another cop is one of the things that keeps me up at night.

It should. A friend and former co-worker of mine was killed while responding to a “shooting call” in plainclothes with a long gun and badge visible on a chain. He was shot by an officer from a metro transit police agency who decided to self dispatch to the non-transit related call. Though initially reported as a shooting, the call actually involved a suspect brandishing knives.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/20777-p...ey-j-breitkopf

[Borderland]

I'm retired now, and have likewise reached the point where the only time I'm shooting rifles is (a) to zero something new (rifle or optic), or (b) LARPing with cowboy guns (Guide Gun and Sharps carbine). I have no plan to deploy any shoulder fired weapon in/around my house, with the possible exception of a very small AR9 platform, which, frankly, will do anything I need a long gun for if it's on my property.

No matter how bad the world gets, I don't see a scenario where I'll be back in the role of a Rifleman. So I'm also looking to focus exclusively on handguns.

In your situation, I think you're making an informed and rational decision.

I don't ever want to give up my rifle, but that's just how I roll. 25 yds vs 200 yds is a long ways when the chips are down.

[KellyinAvon]

I may regret it, but I'm withdrawing from our rifle program. I thought about it for quite awhile and ultimately concluded that it was no longer a good idea for for me based on the following criteria:


1) I'm largely unwilling to be in plain clothes with a long gun out, especially in low light situations, in scenarios were a rifle is likely to matter. My concerns for blue on blue are higher than in years past, regardless of if that means I was too optimistic then or too pessimistic now.

2) I'm in an unmarked car with no real good way to secure the rifle other than a locked trunk, which frankly isn't all that secure. My car is often left unattended in a parking space that's difficult to observe and has a high transient population. I'm unwilling to leave sunglasses in the car, let alone a rifle and ammo. Anyone who breaks into it is getting road flares, a traffic vest, a handcuff key, and a chemical response suit.

3) I do not feel I'm adequately training to serve well. Since we can no longer train on our own on Fridays and since patrol rifle in-service is one day a year and focusing on things that, IMO, are of limited value, my skills are declining.

4) I'm in a role where I really shouldn't be grabbing a rifle anyway, and if I have one that's always the temptation. I can't be on a long gun and doing my real job.

I may be making a mistake, and I can rejoin within 12 months by just doing a basic qual and attending the next in-service, but given the above I think it's the right call.

As always well reasoned and well stated BBI. Someday our paths (in the real world) have to cross.

[Mark D]

I'm going to gripe here and you will probably delete it but whatever.

First off why is this a thread, second I hear a lot of excuses, as a professional end users and LE you should be taking your own time to rectify these gaps in training period.

1) For low light, there is no difference with the issue with a pistol or a long gun you are in plain clothes. You need to rectify this even for off duty stuff, Visi Blue makes a great product to address this that every LE should have - https://visiblue.net/products/the-po...ie-neon-police

2) Scott lock is a great system to use that isn't vehicle specific or require modification to the vehicle - https://scottlockusa.com/

3) Fix this, find a good course make structured training plans, dry fire, etc. you are a professional gun toter. Yes the agency should be better and offer more but that isn't an excuse.

4) The long gun is a great tool and when it comes to the I think I'm going to need a gun I want a rifle period, not always possible but why short yourself an extremely capable option for your line of work.

From a former professional LE gun toter. This and the Pistol RDS zero thread make me so sad about the state of this place and some of the loud voices here that quite frankly need to shut up.

What is it about the Pistol RDS zero thread that makes you sad?

[jnc36rcpd]

I was probably the only academy instructor who hauled a cased rifle out of my house every morning, threw it in the trunk of my take-home cruiser, drove to the academy where the rifle sat in the trunk all day, and reversed the process after work. Of course, I think I was the only instructor who carried handcuffs, but I digress. In any event, while I wouldn't emulate BBL on this issue, he does offer some sound reasoning.

I wore a soft uniform at the academy (polo shirt and cargo pants). While I occasionally jumped out without armor, I never would have deployed with a rifle without vesting up and almost certainly not without hooking up with a uniformed officer. While I had a portable radio with me in the cruiser, I didn't have a shoulder mike on it when I was an instructor nor even a secure method of carrying the thing.

My former agency also had an era when only sergeants and OIC's were trusted with the 9mm AR-15 carbine and the 40mm launcher. Despite the lectures I often got about being a supervisor rather than a worker, this relegated the team leader to a designated marksman or grenadier position. One could only hope both were working if a scenario required both tools. There was actually consideration of putting gunlocks on the AR-15's when stored in the locker for fear that untrustworthy subordinates would play with them.

This bizarre thinking was highlighted on day 2 of the Beltway sniper case when multiple shootings occurred in the county. I was directed to meet another officer at a school I was assigned to guard. When I met him, he informed me that I was supposed to give him my shotgun and he gave me a pistol-caliber carbine. Being a sergeant, I was qualified on both weapons while he was only certified with the gauge.

A couple hours later, I was pie-ing the cab of one of the white box trucks we were foolishly looking for. I Two decades later, I vividly recall thinking that if the bad guy suddenly popped up, I'd be rethis 9mm rather than my shotgun.

[Rex G]

I may regret it, but I'm withdrawing from our rifle program. I thought about it for quite awhile and ultimately concluded that it was no longer a good idea for for me based on the following criteria:


1) I'm largely unwilling to be in plain clothes with a long gun out, especially in low light situations, in scenarios were a rifle is likely to matter. My concerns for blue on blue are higher than in years past, regardless of if that means I was too optimistic then or too pessimistic now.

2) I'm in an unmarked car with no real good way to secure the rifle other than a locked trunk, which frankly isn't all that secure. My car is often left unattended in a parking space that's difficult to observe and has a high transient population. I'm unwilling to leave sunglasses in the car, let alone a rifle and ammo. Anyone who breaks into it is getting road flares, a traffic vest, a handcuff key, and a chemical response suit.

3) I do not feel I'm adequately training to serve well. Since we can no longer train on our own on Fridays and since patrol rifle in-service is one day a year and focusing on things that, IMO, are of limited value, my skills are declining.

4) I'm in a role where I really shouldn't be grabbing a rifle anyway, and if I have one that's always the temptation. I can't be on a long gun and doing my real job.

I may be making a mistake, and I can rejoin within 12 months by just doing a basic qual and attending the next in-service, but given the above I think it's the right call.

Factor #2, alone, is a truly serious concern. Burglaries of vehicles are so very common, in large metropolitan areas. Simple risk/benefit analysis is involved, here.

Factor #3, alone, is a perfectly valid reason to de-select one’s self from being a “rifle/carbine unit.” I de-selected myself, voluntarily, for similar/related reasons. (I remained a shotgunner, and, working straight nights, favored a shotgun as “my” better long gun for that environment, anyway.) Notably, by the time that I de-selected myself, there were plenty of young bucks, with younger eyes, and younger knees, who had their rifles with them. (Optics were still prohibited, at the time, except for SWAT personnel.) I sold my Colt AR15A2 Govt Carbine* to one of those young bucks.

I, too, had the option of regaining my patrol rifle unit status, for a while, by simply running/firing a qual. That made my decision easier. (Eventually, it reached a point at which I would have to re-certify, by attending the multi-day course.)

*I did, eventually, acquire another AR15/M4, before I retired, but never re-certified.

[karmapolice]

This is so poorly written as to be nearly incomprehensible. I didn't realize you'd left LE (and GA, apparently), but I hope that you wrote better than this when you were in. Ultimately, LEOs can do a lot more good with a solid understanding of how to write than with the latest whiz-bang Glock compensator or LPVO. Just saying.

You are correct about the need for professionally written reports and documents in the profession. I absolutely forgot a comma after “second,” and I made user plural by accident and did not correct it. That said this is not a report, an affidavit, or any official document, but why waste my time writing a well-constructed, thoughtful post when that would be derided as bloviating or too verbose? And more importantly, the fact that the points of the post were dismissed by way of ad hominem attack validates my original post.

To address the statement: " I'm not a professional gun toter any more than I'm a professional driver. That's a part of my job, but not the major function and if I *do* need my gun again it's pretty unlikely I'll have time to hump to my car to get it. I'll be spending what time I can with my pistol, because that's what I've got on me."


If your employment status requires you to be armed and to be proficient by a standard chosen by your employer or other governing body, even if it is a low bar of performance, you are indeed a professional gun toter. Secondly I agree your pistol skills should be the primary focus and should get the most attention, and I will leave it at that.

I was indeed curt in my original post, and I will own it, the lack of ownership in LE in general to all the skills required to be a professional is something lacking, and it bothers me. So, it came out in my post strongly.

Since this is not the RDS thread I will address that in PM to Mark D.

[psalms144.1]

I don't ever want to give up my rifle, but that's just how I roll. 25 yds vs 200 yds is a long ways when the chips are down.

Agreed. I have to drive 1.5 hours to get to a spot flat enough to SEE 200 yards. Using a laser range finder in my neighborhood, longest shot is 109 yards.

Reality is, I'm not riding around with a rifle in my vehicle, so, if I'm not in my house, I won't have access to a long gun. If I lived where there was a reasonable thought that I might find a scenario that I'd have to take a shot past handgun ranges, that might be different for me.