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Thread: P&S #292 "The Applicability of Small Caliber Pistols"

  1. #11
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    One of the topics they mention that I'd really love a deep dive into is why to so many service pistols that can run thousands of rounds in testing and in our range work without a malf . . . be seen to foul on dashcam and body cam when someone gets into a "startle" gunfight? I have a hard time believing this just limp wristing. I'd tend to believe it might be a jacked up grip that literally ends up impeding the slide. But I'd love more info on that phenom.

    The podcast does give one a big warm fuzzy about small snubbies carried judiciously.
    Yes, that jumps out at me every time I hear it. I mean it has to have something to do with grip, still weird though.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    One of the topics they mention that I'd really love a deep dive into is why to so many service pistols that can run thousands of rounds in testing and in our range work without a malf . . . be seen to foul on dashcam and body cam when someone gets into a "startle" gunfight? I have a hard time believing this just limp wristing. I'd tend to believe it might be a jacked up grip that literally ends up impeding the slide. But I'd love more info on that phenom.

    The podcast does give one a big warm fuzzy about small snubbies carried judiciously.
    A little bird once told me that there is a psychological component to the functioning of the Ulnar Nerve. The Ulnar Nerve is important to the functioning of the thumb, the ring finger, and the little finger. The thumb, especially, is important to a firm grip. The firmest wrist in the world is worthless, if the thumb fails to play its part.

    I am just a layman, who has Ulnar Nerve issues, but the “little bird” could write “M.D.” after her name, if she cared to do so.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Yes, that jumps out at me every time I hear it. I mean it has to have something to do with grip, still weird though.
    I think it has much to do with taking what you can get for a grip. I find it interesting that we are told that we are to train as we would fight but it's almost taboo to begin firing the pistol without the perfect grip out of the holster. I've seen it mentioned briefly but I really believe if you can't get a solid grip on a semi then they become quite finicky in the smaller calibers. It's as though the polymer pistols require you to become the 'frame mass' with a solid grip where your hand/forearm become that solid frame to hold stationery as the slide moves back.

    Get a low grip on the super 'low bore axis' wonder nine and you've given it the path of least resistance to not come back all the way in the slide and mostly just muzzle climb freely to dissipate the recoil. Remember these are recoil operated, not gas operated. I wonder how many cases of malfunctions we would see on some like an H&K P7 which has a gas piston to cycle the gun. It's just a matter of there being less free recoil energy on the lighter calibers so you need to make sure you don't lose any in any other plane than straight to the rear or have the hands moving rearward in recoil.

    There is a case to be made for aluminum and steel framed guns in the smaller calibers. I find it interesting that many prefer steel frame .45's and 10mm but those are the calibers I'd be less concerned about choking due to limp wrist or grip issues under duress. I really am itching to get a 92D, I really seem called to all metal pistols and revolvers at this point and am falling out of love with the polymer stuff in many ways. The weight savings are nice but that's about the only tangible benefit other than theoretical lower cost.

    Illustrated example, SIG M18 is known to be a reliable gun in the right hands. In the hands of someone with.... smaller hands it is an epic disaster :


  4. #14
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I agree, I was mostly speaking in generalities. i strongly believe Glock to be the biggest culprit, especially considering most departments use them and how common malfunctions are in duty shootings. The videos did do a good job illustrating my points I believe. The G21 did much better overall than the G17 and especially the G17C, even though the 21 wasn't perfect.

    Bigger calibers tended to do better, metal frames tended to do better. Interesting that the Beretta still bobbled at times, again aluminum frames are still not immune to these problems but the SIG 226 did just fine. It would have been nice to know what ammo he was shooting in the tests. I suspect hotter ammo would do better than most factory lighter loads.

  6. #16
    I watched the entire 3 hours of the podcast, but I could only stand 3 minutes of the epic disaster of this video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post

    Illustrated example, SIG M18 is known to be a reliable gun in the right hands. In the hands of someone with.... smaller hands it is an epic disaster :


  7. #17
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    1) Don't forget: this is the Mindset & Tactics subforum. Let's keep this on topic.
    2) Two words: eye bleach. Awful post moved to Romper Room.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    1) Don't forget: this is the Mindset & Tactics subforum. Let's keep this on topic.
    2) Two words: eye bleach. Awful post moved to Romper Room.
    I was searching for pistol testing for limp wristing and couldn't help but come across that little nugget of a hardcore band...

    You're welcome and I'm sorry???

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    These sort of tests are irrelevant to this issue.

    Not is it dopey a polymer frame issue, though lighter frames are likely a little more susceptible.

    Will expand on this in a separate post.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    A little bird once told me that there is a psychological component to the functioning of the Ulnar Nerve. The Ulnar Nerve is important to the functioning of the thumb, the ring finger, and the little finger. The thumb, especially, is important to a firm grip. The firmest wrist in the world is worthless, if the thumb fails to play its part.

    I am just a layman, who has Ulnar Nerve issues, but the “little bird” could write “M.D.” after her name, if she cared to do so.
    I can’t speak to your theory regarding the ulnar nerve in relation to the index and middle fingers or the psychological component but I can tell you that the thimb is the weakest part of the grip and it should not be a factor unless shooting one-handed. If it (thumb) is a factor a two handed grip that is a fundamental deficiency in grip technique.

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