Ukraine wants the M4 carbine

[Jaywalker]

Ukraine asked for military assistance in its war with Russia, and one of the items was the M4 carbine and ammunition. Why?

I prefer the M4 over the AK, but I'm not a country at war that would have to juggle support and ammunition for radically different types of combat rifles in combat. Why would Ukraine (and Iraq before them) choose to do so? It definitely adds to the logistics tail.

(Given that part of the answer might be political - from Ukraine's point of view - I decided to post this question in General Discussion instead of Rifles and Carbines.)

[UNM1136]

Just a guess, but they may be receiving aid from other NATO countries with STANAG.

5.56x45 and M16 magazines are the agreed STANAG cartridge and magazine for the individual Soldier. A quick read says rail systems are also standardized, or proposed to be standardized.

Everyone wants M4s. The Brit general issue is the L85 family of weapons, and UKSF tends to run M4s. Both are 5.56x45 and take M16 magazines. And UKSF's love of the Stoner rifle goes back to the 70s. According to wikiwhatsis many NATO countries, former Warsaw Pact countries and many European countries in general have at least some M4s in thier militaries and police. When your guys are training with other people, the students tend to want the same things the teachers have.

I mean, you can ask, right? They asked for and got Javelins by the hundreds, and you would think that they would have tons of RPG7s or whatever the current former ComBloc rocket launchers are laying around.

Just my $0.02, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

pat

[SecondsCount]

I would prefer something mor DMRish. 18" barrel with a free floated barrel, a decent optic and trigger, and MK262 ammo.

[Wake27]

I would prefer something mor DMRish. 18" barrel with a free floated barrel, a decent optic and trigger, and MK262 ammo.

Dude, it’s an entire country at war against another entire country. They want lots of guns and ammo as a baseline. Nobody beyond an individual gun guy that’s actually fighting is going to give a shit about nuanced parts of a rifle in this situation.


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[TGS]

Ukraine asked for military assistance in its war with Russia, and one of the items was the M4 carbine and ammunition. Why?

Because they kill Russians and they're available. Beggars can't be choosers when your country is facing an immediate existential threat, and legacy AKs aren't really in large regular production anymore.

They also already have domestically produced AR-15s and TAR-21s in service for the last decade. They've already been trying to move towards NATO standardization, not away form it. Lastly, it's not like their military is standardized on something as-is. In addition to the AR-15s and TAR-21s, they have large numbers of AKMs and AK-74s in service: both use different parts, different mags, different ammo, etc. So, if they move towards more numbers of M4s, displacing the AKMs and AK-74s, they're moving towards commonality, not away from it.

[Wake27]

Just a guess, but they may be receiving aid from other NATO countries with STANAG.

5.56x45 and M16 magazines are the agreed STANAG cartridge and magazine for the individual Soldier. A quick read says rail systems are also standardized, or proposed to be standardized.

Everyone wants M4s. The Brit general issue is the L85 family of weapons, and UKSF tends to run M4s. Both are 5.56x45 and take M16 magazines. And UKSF's love of the Stoner rifle goes back to the 70s. According to wikiwhatsis many NATO countries, former Warsaw Pact countries and many European countries in general have at least some M4s in thier militaries and police. When your guys are training with other people, the students tend to want the same things the teachers have.

I mean, you can ask, right? They asked for and got Javelins by the hundreds, and you would think that they would have tons of RPG7s or whatever the current former ComBloc rocket launchers are laying around.

Just my $0.02, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

pat

Agreed. I don’t know what their pre-war or current stockpiles look like but I’m fairly confident that the countries that are open to supporting UKR have a better ability to start and maintain the push of large quantities of M4s and 5.56 then AKs and 5.45 or 7.62.

Plus, I’m sure they’d be happy to illustrate that they’re western backed and what easier way to do that than having soldiers outfitted with the same standard issue small arm as us?


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[SecondsCount]

Dude, it’s an entire country at war against another entire country. They want lots of guns and ammo as a baseline. Nobody beyond an individual gun guy that’s actually fighting is going to give a shit about nuanced parts of a rifle in this situation.


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I want an unfair advantage

[Wake27]

I want an unfair advantage

I’d rather have something light and easy to carry like an M4 so that I can easily jump behind a JAV, goose, or any number of MGs…


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[HCM]

I want an unfair advantage

We are all victims of our own frame of reference. An 18” DMR may be an unfair advantage in some situations but it’s a distinct disadvantage in others.

That assumes one has the requisite training to take advantage of a DMR. Software is greater than hardware. I have some colleagues who were involved in training UKR police tactical units via US sponsored programs in Western Europe and the USA. Suffice to say the time ammunition and other resources to train everyone to properly use a set up like that were not readily available in Ukraine even before the war much less now.

Continuing the logistics are a thing theme, a DMR is a system which includes match type ammo. How is the advantage effected when you can’t get 77 grain match ammo /hand loads and you are shooting de-linked green tip SAW ammo donated by a NATO nation after 30 or 40 years of storage ? If it’s slightly corroded will that be an issue with a match chamber ?

[Wake27]

We are all victims of our own frame of reference. An 18” DMR may be an unfair advantage in some situations but it’s a distinct disadvantage in others.

That assumes one has the requisite training to take advantage of a DMR. Software is greater than hardware. I have some colleagues who were involved in training UKR police tactical units via US sponsored programs in Western Europe and the USA. Suffice to say the time ammunition and other resources to train everyone to properly use a set up like that were not readily available in Ukraine even before the war much less now.

Continuing the logistics are a thing theme, a DMR is a system which includes match type ammo. How is the advantage effected when you can’t get 77 grain match ammo /hand loads and you are shooting de-linked green tip SAW ammo donated by a NATO nation after 30 or 40 years of storage ? If it’s slightly corroded will that be an issue with a match chamber ?

Not to mention that in most modern warfare, small arms typically are just tools to fix people in place until things that go boom start landing.


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