Toyota GR Corolla Circuit

[GJM]

I used to have a Focus RS and it was an incredibly fun car to drive. Hope this one betters the RS.

[OlongJohnson]

It just remains to be seen if Toyota will make enough of them to prevent rape & pillage levels of 'market value adjustments', and whether or not Toyota was smart enough to leave the proverbial 'back door' cracked open in the ECU to support guys like me that want to re tune and tinker on these things.

Bummed I wasn't first to like your post.

My worry is that in spite of checking all the boxes on the spec sheet, the overall integration and driving dynamics won't be there. The list of almost-great-but-ultimately-flawed-and-not-practically-fixable Toyota sporty cars is almost all of them.

Also, it's Toyota, so the odds of back dooring it are extremely low.

[JRB]

I used to have a Focus RS and it was an incredibly fun car to drive. Hope this one betters the RS.

The Focus RS is my third favorite Ford product ever made. The first one being the 05-06 Ford GT, and the second one being the 13-14 Mustang GT500. The Focus RS is the clear winner on the bang:buck ratio of that top three. It really is a fantastic car.

Based on what I've seen, I don't think the GR Corolla will beat the Focus RS as an overall car. As a Toyota guy that disappoints me. But being intellectually honest I'm just not sure that Toyota's GR people can overcome the inherent milquetoast Toyota DNA and ruthless bean counters enough to overcome that gap.

Bummed I wasn't first to like your post.

My worry is that in spite of checking all the boxes on the spec sheet, the overall integration and driving dynamics won't be there. The list of almost-great-but-ultimately-flawed-and-not-practically-fixable Toyota sporty cars is almost all of them.

Also, it's Toyota, so the odds of back dooring it are extremely low.

If we're being fair, virtually all sports cars from big makers have their significant flaws. But I'd agree that Toyota's products always have their flaws just a bit more deeply rooted than others.
Toyota's been getting lit up about locked ECU's for a long time, and they managed to leave the door cracked on the GT86 and the early 'A90' 'Supra' thing. But neither of those used Toyota's own ECU architecture so we'll see how it plays out with the GR Corolla.

[OlongJohnson]

Toyota's been getting lit up about locked ECU's for a long time, and they managed to leave the door cracked on the GT86 and the early 'A90' 'Supra' thing. But neither of those used Toyota's own ECU architecture so we'll see how it plays out with the GR Corolla.

One's a Subaru and one's a BMW, so not really informative w.r.t. other Toyota platforms. Which you know better than I do.

[JRB]

Car-internet rumors and articles are claiming 6500 GR Corollas for the first year. 5000 'normal' models and 1500 circuit editions. MSRP will be a pipe dream at this point, it seems.

[CraigS]

Engine sound aside the Toyota/Subaru twins (I am not sure of their current official designations) have turned out to be really great AX cars. I don't pay that much attention but they seem to be quite the equal to the long time favorite the Miata. So that gives some hope for the new Corolla. OTOH w/ the new Supra, from what I understand, they released it for it's first year w/ X horsepower. The next year they increased it by 40(?). I would be really pissed if I bought that first year. Don't know if that was BMW or Toyota but dang... Back to the Corolla, I will be interested to see how those Torsen diffs work out. Not being much of a 4wd guy, I have never driven an STI or the Mitsu competitor. But I have been under the impression that front diffs w/ some type of lim slip were very limited use for the street because they could really affect the steering as the lim slip went into action. Of course the more HP the worse the effect. Any of you have any experience w/ that?

[JRB]

Engine sound aside the Toyota/Subaru twins (I am not sure of their current official designations) have turned out to be really great AX cars. I don't pay that much attention but they seem to be quite the equal to the long time favorite the Miata. So that gives some hope for the new Corolla. OTOH w/ the new Supra, from what I understand, they released it for it's first year w/ X horsepower. The next year they increased it by 40(?). I would be really pissed if I bought that first year. Don't know if that was BMW or Toyota but dang... Back to the Corolla, I will be interested to see how those Torsen diffs work out. Not being much of a 4wd guy, I have never driven an STI or the Mitsu competitor. But I have been under the impression that front diffs w/ some type of lim slip were very limited use for the street because they could really affect the steering as the lim slip went into action. Of course the more HP the worse the effect. Any of you have any experience w/ that?

Colloquially the FRS/BRZ twins are known as the 'GT86'. When Scion died as a brand the FR-S became the 'Toyota GT86' and now with the new refresh and 2.4L engine it's the 'GR86' since everything sporty Toyota is 'GR' now for Gazoo Racing. Which is still the stupidest name I've ever heard for a racing program. I say this as a Toyota die hard nutjob that has three older Supras and three older MR2's right now.
But you're right, the chassis of the FRS/BRZ twins is absolutely fantastic. AZ6 6-spd manual shared with the NB Miata, RX8, and a few other cars as well. It's just the FA20 flat-4 engine that makes it a warbly turd. A friend of mine stuffed a ~550whp LS7 in his GT86 though and that's a pretty wild car. I'll take pics when I'm at his shop next.

The new "A90" "Supra" is a pretty interesting mess and worthy of its own thread or divergent discussion in the hot rod catch-all thread we have. Cliff's notes is Toyota basically went through all of BMW's parts bins and made the best possible BMW in the hopes of meeting Toyota reliability standards, which is also why the 2020 models got the less powerful version of the B58. But the early versions had a DME (ECU in BMW speak) that could be remapped easily, so the early cars are the tuning sweetheart. When it went from 335hp stock to 385hp stock for the 2021 model year, only the 2021's produced before May of 2020 that have a tuneable ECU. So there's a few lucky months that got the improved stock engine and are also tuneable. There was one shop in Russia of all places that figured out how to clone the DME data onto a tuneable ECU, but that was expensive, risky, and complicated - and now basically impossible with current events. You can make the tuneable BMW Supras into some pretty stupid fast stuff very easily - the stock ZF 8HP auto is lightning fast and with bolt-on upgraded turbos the cars are in the deep 10's with sticky tires and not much fuss.

As for AWD stuff, it all depends on the type of LSD that's up front and the torque bias in the center diff. Various STi and Mitsu Evo models had various center diff torque biasing to keep a RWD bias and allow the car to rotate more evenly, and a Torsen LSD is arguably the best possible diff for a front diff. If you were using a clutch-type LSD there's various ways to tune them for LSD effect on accel & decel to minimize the fuss of it being in the front diff of an FWD or AWD car.
I'd bet on the GR Corolla having fantastic handling regardless.

[entropy]

Love my Hakone 86. It’s a blast to drive. Not the most powerful thing in the world, but it makes up for it in handling. I’m wondering how the new GR86 drives in comparison. Local dealer has yet to get one, and besides the web I haven’t seen one yet.

[OlongJohnson]

I hated the 15-hp torque hole right in the midrange on the 2.0L back in 2013.

The thing that kept me from buying one is that after sitting in one for 20 minutes, my back still hurt an hour later. Not good seats for me.

On the Corolla, I'll just throw it out there that three-cylinders (or multiples of threes divided into threes) are particularly good for turbos, because there are 240 degrees per cylinder in the cycle, long enough for most any reasonable cam profile to have only one intake or exhaust valve open at a time. The result is they don't interfere with each other directly in the same way that is likely when you have overlap between cylinders. So there's that.

I've always liked Torsens or variations (Quaife) on FWD cars.

[entropy]

I hated the 15-hp torque hole right in the midrange on the 2.0L back in 2013.

The thing that kept me from buying one is that after sitting in one for 20 minutes, my back still hurt an hour later. Not good seats for me.

On the Corolla, I'll just throw it out there that three-cylinders (or multiples of threes divided into threes) are particularly good for turbos, because there are 240 degrees per cylinder in the cycle, long enough for most any reasonable cam profile to have only one intake or exhaust valve open at a time. The result is they don't interfere with each other directly in the same way that is likely when you have overlap between cylinders. So there's that.

I've always liked Torsens or variations (Quaife) on FWD cars.

Yep. The hole is still there. From what I understand, there are ways around that but I have no interest. It’s all stock. I don’t drive it on the track. It’s not a daily driver. Where I get enjoyment is driving it along the river roads, widows open, enjoying the view. If you’re a taller person, yeah...it’s gonna be cozy. No more so than a Miata or similar. It’s a fun car.