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Thread: Food for thought

  1. #1

    Food for thought

    Didn't want to horn in on Tom Givens' 'Reminder' thread but I read something that warranted mentioning as a refresher.

    This officer was killed during an off-duty intervention: https://www.odmp.org/officer/26107-d...ren-almendarez

    It's difficult to discuss the issues surrounding any such encounter, without appearing critical or Monday-Morning Quarterbacking. I mourn Deputy Almendarez, we are diminished each time any person offers up their life in the service of the greater good, whether they be an officer, a service member, or a citizen intervening in a criminal act.

    Essentially, off-duty officers and citizens are both operating with the same disadvantages when they intervene: They are often acting alone in situations which ideally would be handled by more than one person. They are often outnumbered by the subjects they are encountering. They often do not have the equipment necessary to safely intervene - lights, radio, etc. They often haven't had time to pre-plan their response to the encounter.

    Pre-planning is a key element, IMO. If at all possible, take a moment, breathe deeply, and decide the best course of action. This doesn't come naturally. It is a learned response which must be practiced. But given practice, this can be an almost instantaneous process.

    One of the first things to immediately determine is your role: are you going to be a witness/reporter or intervene? The groundwork for making this decision almost instantaneously should already be in place through your prior mental preparation. The default, IMO, should be witness/reporter if only property is at stake, and intervention, when tactically sound, to protect someone from great bodily harm.

    Here's the deal though, you have to consider that everyone you confront is brain-damaged. They aren't in their right mind. You cannot expect them to react in a rational manner. No one drags a woman off into the bushes to rape her expecting to get caught; no one puts a gun to a clerk's face and demands the money expecting to get caught; and, no one starts cutting the catalytic converters of a car expecting to get caught.

    When they do get caught by surprise, rational thought processes go out the window. It is a big mistake to expect them to react as a rational person would. Would a person in their right mind stab a store manager to escape getting caught shoplifting a magazine? Hell no, but under the stress of the moment when the only thing standing between getting caught and getting away is the store manager, that happens. It did locally a couple years ago, a fifty dollar misdemeanor beef with no jail time turned into an aggravated battery. Don't tell me the offender was thinking straight.

    In too many cases officers come to expect compliance because, well, most folks comply in their experience. You can see how easy it is to develop that mindset when everyone in the last year has been cooperative to your announced presence. Likewise, an armed citizen might expect compliance to their drawn firearm, or threat of a firearm because, well, that's the way they would roll. Remember, under stress, you don't know which way the bad guy is going to roll.

    Don't, just don't, expect compliance, and don't intervene when only property is at stake.

    JMO, YMMV.
    Last edited by DDTSGM; 04-02-2022 at 09:27 PM.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  2. #2
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    It’s a tough pill to swallow for guys who have spent a lifetime running towards gunfire and other violence to take their own safety and life into account just because they’re off the clock.

    But slug it down. Choke on it if you have to. 3rd party interventions in the line of duty with all of the supporting elements are difficult enough. You’re working with extremely limited information, and in the initial stages of your involvement, the opportunities to misread the circumstances grossly outnumber those that are clear enough to justify engaging in those same circumstances without the (albeit flimsy and not 100% reliable) net you have when working in an employment status.

    If it isn’t directly involving me and mine, and I’m not being paid (or protected by legislation), I’m not poking my nose where it doesn’t belong. When shit is none of my business, it is exactly that. None of my fucking business. The reward for an off-the-clock intervention is nonexistent, with very, very few exceptions. I firmly believe in the concept that to see what is right, and NOT to do, is to want of courage.

    But if off-the-clock, and I don’t know you, I don’t owe you a damn thing. Not my monkeys. Not my circus. Not my problem. The consequences, as illustrated in the above, are potentially fatal, not to mention the financial hardships, and unnecessary external stressors you’re going to face when it is not fatal is still enough to destroy your life, and the lives of your families. Besides being crucified in the media, and court of public opinion, you’re going to be held to account for your actions.

    Even when you have done everything right; legally, morally, and ethically, you’re not immune to the repercussions. Jack Wilson intervened in a church shooting where two members of his congregation were killed before he was in a position to effectively take action. He saw the entire event unfold before his eyes, giving him information 99% of us won’t have in a third party intervention. It took nearly ten months, (10 months…..) for the DA to elect not to pursue criminal charges, in Texas, a state where firearms and individual rights to defense of self and others are more favorable than just about any other state in the union. How much do you think that costs in attorney’s fees? 10 months of legal representation in a homicide case?

    Skip forward to after his actions are (finally) deemed justified, and his criminal fate is no longer hanging in the balance:

    Dude gets sued.

    And NOT by the deceased’s next of kin or family members. But by members of HIS OWN CONGREGATION. THE VERY PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES HE SAVED………. Filed a suit seeking compensation for emotional damage incurred due to HIS actions……..framing their perceived problems as being cause by Mr. Wilson’s intervention rather than the actions of the gunman who made Mr. Wilson’s actions necessary in his eyes.

    There is not an “upside” to involving yourself in someone else’s business, and the consequences are likely to be catastrophic even when you’re 100% “right”.

    Now imagine if you got something wrong along the way…….. you and your family are proper fucked. People think a colonoscopy is uncomfortable. Try prison. While knowing your actions have left your family financially ruined, emotionally depleted, spouse without their partner, children missing a parent, semi-infamous for being your relative (thanks to the leeches and bottom feeders that run the media), unable to go into public without being recognized & whispered about, and you get to find out how it feels to have your colon turned into the Grand Canyon daily because you’re locked up with the other murderers and rapists.

    Mind your business. Unless there is absolutely no other option.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  3. #3
    The way Cornered Cat phrased it has stuck with me:
    —————
    …When you pull and use a gun, you are gambling literally everything you have on getting it right during the event and being legally justified afterward. You are gambling your physical life. You are betting your job, your home, and every penny you have in the bank. At risk is your marriage, your ability to share a bed with the person you love, and your ability to watch your children grow up in person instead of from jail. You place on the table every friendship you’ve ever made, every dollar you’ve ever earned or will earn, and your family’s future happiness. You are risking sleep disturbances, flashbacks, nightmares, impotence, anorexia, alcoholism, drug reliance, and a long and bitter lifetime of regret if you get it wrong. That is the gamble you take when you use a firearm against another human being.

    To take a gamble that big, it’s a good idea to be overwhelmingly certain there’s no other way out.

    ——————
    https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...of-a-stranger/

  4. #4
    The last two posts summed it up better than I could. I have decided that I will not intervene in any third party event short of an active shooter while off duty. There’s another thread going on about a similar off-duty involvement that led to an officer being killed in a blue-on-blue shooting. Add that to the risks you face when you pull out your gun.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  5. #5
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Some wisdom being shared here for those wise enough to hear...

    Thank you gents. It can't be stressed or repeated enough.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  6. #6
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    The way Cornered Cat phrased it has stuck with me:
    —————
    …When you pull and use a gun, you are gambling literally everything you have on getting it right during the event and being legally justified afterward. You are gambling your physical life. You are betting your job, your home, and every penny you have in the bank. At risk is your marriage, your ability to share a bed with the person you love, and your ability to watch your children grow up in person instead of from jail. You place on the table every friendship you’ve ever made, every dollar you’ve ever earned or will earn, and your family’s future happiness. You are risking sleep disturbances, flashbacks, nightmares, impotence, anorexia, alcoholism, drug reliance, and a long and bitter lifetime of regret if you get it wrong. That is the gamble you take when you use a firearm against another human being.

    To take a gamble that big, it’s a good idea to be overwhelmingly certain there’s no other way out.

    ——————
    https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...of-a-stranger/
    I’m not so sure you’re gambling on getting it right these days. Being right doesn’t do much good when all of the other things you’re gambling come to pass and it destroys your life. Even though you “got it right”.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  7. #7
    Where can one find the details on Jack Wilson being sued by the members of the congregation? I’ve not yet been able to find information on it.
    “Conspiracy theories are just spoiler alerts these days.”

  8. #8
    Just because you thought you were morally right, and within the spirit of the law, doesn't mean they won't take a giant chunk out of your behind.

  9. #9
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    A consideration for LEO's is that if you wouldn't do it on duty, why are you doing it off duty?

    If we arrive on a robbery in progress, we usually do not make entry. We try to take them in the parking lot. There are exceptions, of course. If serious assaults are occurring, we're going in and the devil take the hindmost, but generally we take the bad guys outside. If we jump into a felony in progress, we have a significant chance of someone--cop, citizen, bad guy--getting shot.

    Consider domestics. I've had a few that eventually ended up in murders or serious injuries to a victim, usually a volunteer victim. Tragic and law enforcement/society in general should do what can be done to reduce domestic violence, but some tatted up douche bag smacking someone in the parking lot is unlikely to kill or seriously injure her (or him, to be politically correct) right now. Call the cops who are being paid to deal with these things at this time. Cops get assaulted al the time on DV's. You increase your risk if you're off duty and not recognized as a legitimate LEO by the parties involved.

    For the non-LEO's reading this, this goes double.

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