Question for Those Who Attend/Attended Frequent High Round Count Pistol Training

[1Rangemaster]

It certainly does bring up an interesting line of discussion. OIS/DGU encounters have a lot of jerking around and non-ideal grips. Could be something to consider when assessing reliability.

Or, enable the operator. That’s what instruction, training and practice are for. The “average” local LE officer around here gets a couple of hundred rounds a year and does little if any dry firing and manipulations. Federal folks with bigger budgets might get quarterly shooting sessions.
The machines today are pretty reliable; it’s the “Indian” that needs constant tuning I think.

[1Rangemaster]

That’s a complicated issue.

One factor is the majority of cops are trained to a level of conscious competence, rather than unconscious competence.

Trying to do your first sub second draw in an OIS after you’ve spent years doing 1.5 to 2.5 second draws in a no officer left behind qual is not a recipe for success. At best we default to our training.

Another factor is individuals level of emotional control.

Regardless it’s outside the scope of reliability in high round count training classes.

Yeah, agree “it’s complicated”. And now we get into “mindset”-and I will leave it at that for the moment.

[SwampDweller]

Or, enable the operator. That’s what instruction, training and practice are for. The “average” local LE officer around here gets a couple of hundred rounds a year and does little if any dry firing and manipulations. Federal folks with bigger budgets might get quarterly shooting sessions.
The machines today are pretty reliable; it’s the “Indian” that needs constant tuning I think.

Another thing to consider in this realm is that certain guns excel in reliability in some areas more than others. For just an example, a Beretta 92 or 1911 may be less susceptible to limpwristing than a G19, but a G19 may be more reliable than a 92 or 1911 when dropped in (or the user falls into) sand or mud. That is certainly something that happens in OIS/DGU encounters.

Not to equate the reliability of the 92 and 1911. Personally I've seen and experienced far more issues with 1911s than Beretta 92s.

[G19Fan]

It totally depends on the gun. The Glock's extractor for the most part is fairly forgiving while the SIG P220 internal one was not.

We saw significant accelerated wear anywhere between 500 and 1500 rounds of the junk. For the most part, we saw it on SWAT officer's and range staff's guns which are the guns that get shot more than average. It's hard to put an exact number to it.

Makes sense and thanks! Yeah I definitely beat on my training gun's and so far so good. Definitely keeping watch on wear

[HCM]

Or, enable the operator. That’s what instruction, training and practice are for. The “average” local LE officer around here gets a couple of hundred rounds a year and does little if any dry firing and manipulations. Federal folks with bigger budgets might get quarterly shooting sessions.
The machines today are pretty reliable; it’s the “Indian” that needs constant tuning I think.

It varies considerably at the local level.

My city PD guys get 500 to 800 hundred rounds a year during a week of in-service once per year and a hundred or so when they qualify at another time. They intentionally do them separately to provide greater recency than once per year. They also do force on force regularly. They have a great firearms program and their performance in OIS reflects it.

Conversely there are agencies in my area which shoot monthly and agencies which go to the range once a year, shoot the state mandated 50 round qual once or twice and go drink the rest of the day.

I’ve written here before that guns, ammo, optics etc are all cheap compared to man hours..

[Patrick Taylor]

Back during one of the ammo crunches I took a case of steel case wolf to a class with a Glock , it choked on it both days. There was also one shooter with a HK 45 that had problems the first day , 2nd day he shot a school rental gun. No idea what model of HK 45 it was.

[MDFA]

1. Reasonably Clean and Lubed.
2. Quality Factory Ammo.
3. Don't Fuck With It.
4. Gun Will Work Better Than The Operator....

[revchuck38]

I'll jump in on the "proper lubrication" bandwagon as well. Some guns, like Glocks, run fine even when fairly dry. Some don't. Case in point, a friend of mine had a Staccato C2 that he m*****f***ed no end because of "reliability issues." I got hold of it, and the very first thing I saw was it was dry, like USMC arms room ready for inspection dry. I field stripped it, lubricated it according to factory instructions, and hit the range. 500 rounds later, I could tell him, conclusively, there was not a thing wrong with that pistol besides the operator.

Best part is, RIGHT ON TOP of the pistol, in the factory case, is a red 3x5 card, with big bold letters saying: "Lubricate according to instructions BEFORE shooting."

Karl Rehn has been training folks since the 90s. From his "Class Policies" page:

Bring a clean and well lubricated gun to class. It is almost impossible to over-lubricate a modern semi automatic firearm. Guns need more than the "3 drops of oil" some gunshop employees claim, and "new in box" guns that have never been fired need lubrication too. A good rule of thumb is to use about twice as much oil as you think you should, then work the slide and wipe off the excess. Use a product sold as gun oil, not Break Free, WD-40 or any combination "cleaner & lubricant".

Going off on a tangent, revolvers can make it through a high round count class. I went through ~720 rounds in a day and a half with no problems, using an S&W M67 and my lead bullet handloads, BUT I was brushing out the chambers and under the extractor star every chance I had, and the ammo was a perfect fit in the chamber mouths and bore. Shooting a modern 9x19 with decent FMJ ammo is just so much easier.

[JohnO]

@JohnO: I suspect if it’s a “Gucci” Glock, it ain’t stock- and therein lies the problem.

That was my point.

When someone is forking over $2K for a $500 gun you have to question why. If truly $1500 worth of work went in then it is not what was when it started out. Therefore whatever reputation of performance & reliability normally attributed to the base brand/model has long sense departed.

[Kyle Reese]

I do the LE firearms instructor as a full-time day job and teach with Green Ops on the side. Here are my general observations pertaining to handguns that I see on the line;

As an agency, we used to issue GLOCK 23 Gen 4's to uniformed officers and GLOCK 35 Gen 4 MOS' to ERT. During the post-FLETC recruit firearms training, over a two year period, I personally witnessed several G23's on the line experience broken locking block pins, broken slide stops and many instances of the trigger pin walking out. The ammunition used was Speer Gold-Dot 165 grain JHP. Shooter fatigue was a factor as well, especially during the Reactive Shooter Operator Course. Our GLOCK 35's were reliable and much more pleasant to shoot, obviously.

In early 2021, we switched to the GLOCK 47 for uniformed officers, GLOCK 19 Gen 5 MOS for 1811's and we also procured some GLOCK 43X's for limited issue. To the best of my knowledge, parts breakage/issues in the 47's/19's is at zero. The guns are extremely popular with the troops and I feel that they were an excellent selection. The only reliability issues so far are end user induced (failing to seat the mag properly) or the occasional hard primer with our training ammunition. I took a bone stock G47 down to Rogers Shooting School last summer and got my Advanced rating with it. My work G47 has an Aimpoint ACRO P-1 and TLR-1, and I've fired north of 20,000 rounds through it since last April. The gun gets cleaned when it needs it and lubed with EWL or Lucas Extreme Duty Gun oil. I feel that the Gen 5's are the best guns that GLOCK has ever made and I am thrilled that we selected them.

The GLOCK 43X's are used much less frequently, but with the fully loaded OEM 10 round mags, they do not seem to like being seated with a round chambered. Minor issue, but there it is.

On the commercial side with Green Ops, I see a much larger group of firearms represented on the firing line. As a general rule, unmodified GLOCKs, M&Ps, Walther PPQ/PDPs, HKs, etc all run fine with factory mags, quality ammunition and with the appropriate amount of lubricant. Things begin to go a bit side ways with aftermarket titanium strikers, ETS pistol mags and Bubba McMurtry's Country Cookin' Gun Show reloads. One student came to class with a GLOCK 30 with every bell and whistle under the sun installed- custom titanium striker to "reduce lock time", connector, the whole works. The gun was unreliable, and the student had the OEM parts in the GLOCK case. During lunch, the gun was brought back into OEM configuration and ran fine for the remainder of the class. Surprisingly, 1911's that are properly lubricated, fed quality ammo and use good mags seem to run well.

Just my observations.......