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Thread: Question for Those Who Attend/Attended Frequent High Round Count Pistol Training

  1. #11
    Good info so far, I’m compiling data for customers who often ask where I work what holds up the best for classes where pistols can be run hard. So far it sounds like 9mm Glocks are pretty universally recognized as being solid. Sounds like some older Sigs too, as well as H&Ks. I mostly shoot HK and Glock but often wonder about the 92 series as well.

    Some customers have variations on the question, such as if they’re looking for a specific caliber handgun that holds up well. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 Auto, and rarely, .357 SIG.

    I’m in an area where certain service members are basically given blank checks to procure what they want locally.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post

    Some customers have variations on the question, such as if they’re looking for a specific caliber handgun that holds up well. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 Auto, and rarely, .357 SIG.
    I've seen a guy or two with a badly beat-up hand from trying to make it through a 2 day class with a .357 Sig Glock. Not for the faint of heart or an old guy on blood thinner, NOPE!

  3. #13
    It's been a while since I've been in a high round count class (>1k over a weekend) where people showed up with a crap gun. The standard gun choices that retail for at least $500 seem to run fine in a stock configuration. I'm sure there's a ton of selection bias based on the classes I'm attending, but most of reliability issues I recall are in guns with

    aftermarket comps
    aftermarket spring "tuning"
    poorly lubed guns
    junk ammo

    No particular order.

    Active Self Protection does collect some basic data of problematic guns they see in classes. They occasionally mention it in their AAR's on the ASP "Extra" page. You might reach out to them. It sounds like Gunsite does too.
    David S.

  4. #14
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    My observations match those of prior posters in that the number one issue is not the make/model but aftermarket parts and /or modifications. This includes aftermarket magazines and magazines with aftermarket extensions.

    Some have been failures of the parts themselves, some improper installation.

    Next is ammo quality. Some guns (Glocks) are extremely tolerant of poor quality ammo such as steel case and Blazer aluminum, P320s not do much. P320s require at least Walmart grade brass case ammo.

    I just completed an Instructor re-certification class at work, 17 shooters with stock P320s fired 1k rounds each in 5 days with most of those rounds being in 2 days. Ammo was 100 rounds of Gold Dot and about 900 of purple 115 grain Winchester training ammo and Speer frangible. No issues. 4 Glock shooters, sane round count also no issues.

    Third is caliber. I’ve seen more failures with .40 and .357, particularly.40 cal Glocks.

    With factory optics, most failures are improper installation though I’ve seen more issues with the S&W CORE than the MOS. The latter only with the cheap factory supplied plates. Ironically optics plates are one area where aftermarket solutions are superior to OEM.
    Last edited by HCM; 03-25-2022 at 10:44 AM.

  5. #15
    Member Texaspoff's Avatar
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    I have had classes where everyone's pistol performed perfectly including a few 1911's. I have also had classes where Glock, Sigs, H&K etc have had some type of issue at some point during the course.

    I only teach LE, but what I can tell you is, it's pretty easy to pick out in the first 5 minutes who is likely to experience issues during the course.

    Most modern handguns are more than capable during a moderate to high round count courses to run without failures. IMO How well a pistol performs during a course is more reliant on the operator rather than the platform. By that I mean how intimae they are with it, IE maintenance and care etc.




    TXPO
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  6. #16
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    I have run 1911s and HKs in the classes I have taken. Overall, I haven't had any problems. My Baer lost its rear sight in the middle of a Langdon class but that's the extent of problems I have had with mine. Not sure if it makes a difference but my 1911s are government size .45s.

    I recall a few years ago in a Vogel class one fella having failure to feed issues with an Ed Brown in 9mm... but that's about 6ish years ago and I feel like the formula for 9mm 1911s may be more figured out. Same class a fella had an issue with his department issued P227. But I think that was lubrication related because his gun was dryer than a popcorn fart. I would echo that on one other occasion a Glock that the dude had next to me in an ECQC course- the fella had farted around with the gun and was having pretty nasty feed and ejection problems on day 1. Second day it ran fine.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texaspoff View Post
    I have had classes where everyone's pistol performed perfectly including a few 1911's. I have also had classes where Glock, Sigs, H&K etc have had some type of issue at some point during the course.

    I only teach LE, but what I can tell you is, it's pretty easy to pick out in the first 5 minutes who is likely to experience issues during the course.

    Most modern handguns are more than capable during a moderate to high round count courses to run without failures. IMO How well a pistol performs during a course is more reliant on the operator rather than the platform. By that I mean how intimae they are with it, IE maintenance and care etc.




    TXPO
    I agree with your observations re: the operators role in reliability.

    It raises the question - in open enrollment classes what is the correlation/ causation relationship between operators who induce issues and operators seeking aftermarket hardware solutions to software /training issues ?

  8. #18
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    I had good success with my 9mm and .40 SigSauer 226's. I did lose a front sight on the 9mm during an IALEFI RTC, but substituted my 228 for the rest of the class. We eventually experienced cracked frames in numerous .40's to include a 239, but mine is still solid.

  9. #19
    Rogers Shooting School had G17s they would loan to students and they saw a lot of rounds over a year of classes. That said, anything made by man will eventually fail/break. I’ve had an extractor go in a 1911, as well as the barrel lug breaking off. Had an extractor fail in a Sig220. Parts can go in a Glock too; I keep some small parts in a bag if I don’t have a backup gun.
    I think recoil springs are critical. I recall seeing 2,000 rounds as a replacement number for 1911s. Glock stated 5,000 rounds for the single spring assemblies. Pretty sure one could go past that with the compact and full size 4s&5s(dual springs).
    If I were going to a high round count class-1,000 to 2,500 rounds- my preference would be a G17, 19, 34 or Model 45, cleaned, lightly lubed with vetted OEM mags and good ammo.
    And a backup gun…

  10. #20
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    I'll jump in on the "proper lubrication" bandwagon as well. Some guns, like Glocks, run fine even when fairly dry. Some don't. Case in point, a friend of mine had a Staccato C2 that he m*****f***ed no end because of "reliability issues." I got hold of it, and the very first thing I saw was it was dry, like USMC arms room ready for inspection dry. I field stripped it, lubricated it according to factory instructions, and hit the range. 500 rounds later, I could tell him, conclusively, there was not a thing wrong with that pistol besides the operator.

    Best part is, RIGHT ON TOP of the pistol, in the factory case, is a red 3x5 card, with big bold letters saying: "Lubricate according to instructions BEFORE shooting."

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