Question for Those Who Attend/Attended Frequent High Round Count Pistol Training

[SwampDweller]

I do the LE firearms instructor as a full-time day job and teach with Green Ops on the side. Here are my general observations pertaining to handguns that I see on the line;

As an agency, we used to issue GLOCK 23 Gen 4's to uniformed officers and GLOCK 35 Gen 4 MOS' to ERT. During the post-FLETC recruit firearms training, over a two year period, I personally witnessed several G23's on the line experience broken locking block pins, broken slide stops and many instances of the trigger pin walking out. The ammunition used was Speer Gold-Dot 165 grain JHP. Shooter fatigue was a factor as well, especially during the Reactive Shooter Operator Course. Our GLOCK 35's were reliable and much more pleasant to shoot, obviously.

In early 2021, we switched to the GLOCK 47 for uniformed officers, GLOCK 19 Gen 5 MOS for 1811's and we also procured some GLOCK 43X's for limited issue. To the best of my knowledge, parts breakage/issues in the 47's/19's is at zero. The guns are extremely popular with the troops and I feel that they were an excellent selection. The only reliability issues so far are end user induced (failing to seat the mag properly) or the occasional hard primer with our training ammunition. I took a bone stock G47 down to Rogers Shooting School last summer and got my Advanced rating with it. My work G47 has an Aimpoint ACRO P-1 and TLR-1, and I've fired north of 20,000 rounds through it since last April. The gun gets cleaned when it needs it and lubed with EWL or Lucas Extreme Duty Gun oil. I feel that the Gen 5's are the best guns that GLOCK has ever made and I am thrilled that we selected them.

The GLOCK 43X's are used much less frequently, but with the fully loaded OEM 10 round mags, they do not seem to like being seated with a round chambered. Minor issue, but there it is.

On the commercial side with Green Ops, I see a much larger group of firearms represented on the firing line. As a general rule, unmodified GLOCKs, M&Ps, Walther PPQ/PDPs, HKs, etc all run fine with factory mags, quality ammunition and with the appropriate amount of lubricant. Things begin to go a bit side ways with aftermarket titanium strikers, ETS pistol mags and Bubba McMurtry's Country Cookin' Gun Show reloads. One student came to class with a GLOCK 30 with every bell and whistle under the sun installed- custom titanium striker to "reduce lock time", connector, the whole works. The gun was unreliable, and the student had the OEM parts in the GLOCK case. During lunch, the gun was brought back into OEM configuration and ran fine for the remainder of the class. Surprisingly, 1911's that are properly lubricated, fed quality ammo and use good mags seem to run well.

Just my observations.......

This is invaluable information. Thank you.

Out of curiosity, what HKs do you see and are any in .45? How do they do?

[Kyle Reese]

USPs (full size and compact) in 9mm, 40 and 45- full size and compact. DA/SA and LEM. VP9 and VP9 SK. Quite a few 9mm P2000s and P30s.

No issues except for end user error.


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[falnovice]

Do you all see many "limp wristing" occurrences at training? In my experience I have not.

Tons, absolute tons. This comes with the disclaimer that I assisted with new shooter classes for a number of years.
I would also add that Glocks appear to be far more susceptible to limp writing than other designs, with the disclaimer that the most common gun I saw was Glock so that may be skewed. Having said that, M&Ps are pretty popular and don't seem to limp wrist as easily, and metal-framed guns very rarely.

Stock guns from major companies appear to be very reliable if they are properly maintained and lubed. I really haven't noticed any difference between Glocks, M&Ps, and HKs in that regard. Poorly maintained or high round count guns experience issues. For a while there it seemed everyone was trying to run their Glocks without cleaning or service. Springs breaking should not surprise anyone at that point. I personally always keep a duplicate of my carry gun for training, just to keep the round count down on the one that matters.
Modified guns are a crapshoot. In my observation Glock, with the largest available aftermarket, is the worst offender here. Gucci Glocks are like 1911s; when they are built right they just scream, but when they are not they are junk.

Extended controls, most specifically mag releases, cause a lot of issues. I don't know how many accidental mag drops I have seen, both new shooters as well as professional classes I've attended, but it is high. It might be the number one issue. That, or aftermarket mags and/or baseplates.

Tacitcool "go fast" mentalities induce a lot of malfunctions too. I think we forget that some techniques really have to be trained to be maintained. Again, mostly focusing on new shooters and those that aren't "gun people"; if you are going to go to a two-day class, and then shoot once a year, then all the "go fast" stuff needs to be left in the locker. Thumbs high, thumbs forward grips are great, if you don't lock the slide open while firing, or thumb pinch the slide, or knuckle drag the slide causing a jam. I have even seen LEOs do this, and that is just under time stress. Hell, I've seen shooters C-clamp the gun with their thumb up OVER the slide!

Surprisingly, or maybe not, quality 1911s running ball and regular mags have generally been quite reliable in my observation. Of course, most people don't run high dollar hollow points at a high round count class.

If I had to select one gun for the most reliable title, in my observation, it would probably be the Sig P226. I don't recall seeing any breakages on those, though failure to lock back was a common occurrence. Ask someone else and they would have a different observation. Personally, my most reliable gun has been a Mark III Browing Hi-Power, lightly smithed by a pro. Of course, the only time I've seen one of those in a class is when I was shooting it.
The rangemaster at the local rental range claims the old steel Ruger P89 is the most reliable auto ever made. They still are running the first one from when they opened. I've never seen one in a class so.....

Unless one is willing to dedicate the time to maintain a higher skillset, then a stock gun with good sights and a KISS attitude is the best way to go IMHO.
If you are willing to invest the time and money in regular training, then any modern automatic from a major company will serve you well....just don't "improve" it to the point it is broken.

All my observations, and as always YMMV.

[SwampDweller]

Tons, absolute tons. This comes with the disclaimer that I assisted with new shooter classes for a number of years.
I would also add that Glocks appear to be far more susceptible to limp writing than other designs, with the disclaimer that the most common gun I saw was Glock so that may be skewed. Having said that, M&Ps are pretty popular and don't seem to limp wrist as easily, and metal-framed guns very rarely.

Does this factor harm the overall trust in the reliability of the Glock in your eyes? It's not hard to imagine someone having to shoot in self defense or the line of duty with a compromised grip due to injury or chaotic circumstances, like being knocked down.

[PD Sgt.]

My personal experience mirrors pretty much what everyone else here has said. Most failures I have witnessed come from pistols that are more heavily modified. The more modified, the more likely to experience issues. Stock Glocks, M&Ps, HKs, CZ, Berettas, and most recently a couple Stacattos have all seemed to run fine from what I could see.

My personal training pistols are usually a 9mm Gen5 Glock of some sort, 19, 17, or 45. I always bring a spare but have yet needed to switch. The extent of the mods to mine are NP3’d connectors and striker safety. Never an issue.

I have shot a ton of the old aluminum cased Blazer in classes without issue. I don’t think I would run steel if I could help it but I have seen others do it. Apparently the aluminum cased stuff is no longer in production (according to our firearms training guys) so it will be brass for me from here on out. We did switch to the dirtiest (cheapest) stuff I can recall shooting (Blazer 147g), so we will see how it works out. I have two classes coming up at the end of next month and I will report back on if the ammo makes a difference in them.

[falnovice]

Does this factor harm the overall trust in the reliability of the Glock in your eyes? It's not hard to imagine someone having to shoot in self defense or the line of duty with a compromised grip due to injury or chaotic circumstances, like being knocked down.

No, not particularly. To be honest I have never had a limp wrist malfunction with a Glock myself unless I was trying to induce one. Having said that, while I am by no means Hercules, I am a bit larger than average and blessed with formative years filled with manual labor; I have a strong grip. Though I admit I moved over to the M&Ps a while ago, so I may not be the best judge on this one.

Now if one was inexperienced, with small hands or an inherent weak grip, then this might be a factor to consider for them.

If I recall correctly one of the more reputable trainers observed that handguns malfunction a lot more in real-world shootings than people like to admit. A quick look at any of the more popular Youtube channels that are dedicated to civilian/leo shootings seems to support that. I've always been curious regarding the rate of malfunctions vs total ammo expended, and I suspect that a study of this might find that in civilian self-defense shootings one is more likely to have a malfunction than to fire 10+ rounds, require a speed reload, require one hand reload, or engage with the non-dominate hand only after injury. If I am ever laid up in bed with broken legs, or quarantined with COVID OmegaThetaEpsilon, I will dedicate the time to these thousands of videos and come up with some statistics to amuse myself.

Clearing malfunction drills aren't very sexy, but I think they have a lot of value.

As always, these are my opinions and YMMV.

[SwampDweller]

My personal experience mirrors pretty much what everyone else here has said. Most failures I have witnessed come from pistols that are more heavily modified. The more modified, the more likely to experience issues. Stock Glocks, M&Ps, HKs, CZ, Berettas, and most recently a couple Stacattos have all seemed to run fine from what I could see.

My personal training pistols are usually a 9mm Gen5 Glock of some sort, 19, 17, or 45. I always bring a spare but have yet needed to switch. The extent of the mods to mine are NP3’d connectors and striker safety. Never an issue.

I have shot a ton of the old aluminum cased Blazer in classes without issue. I don’t think I would run steel if I could help it but I have seen others do it. Apparently the aluminum cased stuff is no longer in production (according to our firearms training guys) so it will be brass for me from here on out. We did switch to the dirtiest (cheapest) stuff I can recall shooting (Blazer 147g), so we will see how it works out. I have two classes coming up at the end of next month and I will report back on if the ammo makes a difference in them.

Thanks, I'd be interested to hear what you have to report.

[Oldherkpilot]

Huh. I've never considered Blazer aluminum as poor quality. In fact I seek it out for when I'm shooting outdoors, as I dont feel I have to pick through the grass to recover my brass.

I attended a high round count course that specified no reloaded ammo. The only factory .40 ammo I had was Blazer Aluminum. My CZ 40P went from flawless to double feeds when introduced to the aluminum. I installed the slide from my spare pistol and went back to flawless. Seems the weaker extractor spring slipped off the rim of the aluminum more easily, resulting in the double feeds. Glad to find the weakness at school and not getting kilt in the streets!

[SwampDweller]

No, not particularly. To be honest I have never had a limp wrist malfunction with a Glock myself unless I was trying to induce one. Having said that, while I am by no means Hercules, I am a bit larger than average and blessed with formative years filled with manual labor; I have a strong grip. Though I admit I moved over to the M&Ps a while ago, so I may not be the best judge on this one.

Now if one was inexperienced, with small hands or an inherent weak grip, then this might be a factor to consider for them.

If I recall correctly one of the more reputable trainers observed that handguns malfunction a lot more in real-world shootings than people like to admit. A quick look at any of the more popular Youtube channels that are dedicated to civilian/leo shootings seems to support that. I've always been curious regarding the rate of malfunctions vs total ammo expended, and I suspect that a study of this might find that in civilian self-defense shootings one is more likely to have a malfunction than to fire 10+ rounds, require a speed reload, require one hand reload, or engage with the non-dominate hand only after injury. If I am ever laid up in bed with broken legs, or quarantined with COVID OmegaThetaEpsilon, I will dedicate the time to these thousands of videos and come up with some statistics to amuse myself.

Clearing malfunction drills aren't very sexy, but I think they have a lot of value.

As always, these are my opinions and YMMV.

I've noticed how often pistols seem to malfunction in LEO shooting footage. The vast majority of the time it's a Glock, but the vast majority of LEO pistols are Glocks in these videos so it could be because of that. I do remember seeing one vid with an officer's M&P malfunctioning and one with a Sig P320 as well, but most are Glocks. Maybe it's just because pistols malfunction more often in real world settings as you say, but it still makes one who carries a Glock wonder.

I did notice on at least a few of the videos (wouldn't be able to find them now, probably), they were definitely not limp wristing malfunctions but rather the slide's travel being obstructed or some other reason.

Also, what made you switch to the M&P?

[Kyle Reese]

I've noticed how often pistols seem to malfunction in LEO shooting footage. The vast majority of the time it's a Glock, but the vast majority of LEO pistols are Glocks in these videos so it could be because of that. I do remember seeing one vid with an officer's M&P malfunctioning and one with a Sig P320 as well, but most are Glocks. Maybe it's just because pistols malfunction more often in real world settings as you say, but it still makes one who carries a Glock wonder.

I did notice on at least a few of the videos (wouldn't be able to find them now, probably), they were definitely not limp wristing malfunctions but rather the slide's travel being obstructed or some other reason.

Also, what made you switch to the M&P?

I've witnessed GLOCKs malfunctioning (end user induced) when LEOs are shooting from the high retention position- firing the weapon with their primary hand where the pistol is held close to the body. This technique is taught to be applied at contact distances (under 1.5 yards). The causal factor is the rear of the slide making contact with the external vest. Canting the pistol outward slightly prevents this from happening. Also, another thing to consider- some LEO duty guns are dry and dirty, and are often exposed to the rain, heat and other environmental factors. As much as we'd like them to, some officers don't clean, lube and inspect their duty weapons as often as we'd like, or in some cases, at all. I think that it's safe to say that this is not uncommon at most agencies nationwide.

Factor in an unlubricated & dirty gun, suboptimal firing grip and stuff coming into contact with the slide while firing- we begin to see the importance of maintaining your duty gear and for regularly training to clear stoppages and get the pistol back into the fight as efficiently as possible.