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Thread: Shotgun qual dustup

  1. #1
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    Shotgun qual dustup

    Recently, I observed a quarrel between a firearms instructor and an agent at a shotgun qual, and I'd like to get the PF LE forum's take on it. The FI had chosen to make the shotgun qual the very last event of a somewhat fatiguing day of shooting and moving barricades around the range. The shotgun qual itself calls for transitioning to pistol and making two headshots at the end when the shotgun runs dry. It is a pass/fail qual, and the agent, experiencing some arm tremors due to fatigue, missed one of the headshots. Let me be clear: No one disputed that he failed, and no one said anything about pencil-whipping anything. But, he held that A) it was dumb to put the qual at the end of the range day when people are tired, and that B) the qual was dumb for allowing a situation in which a missed pistol shot caused a failure on a shotgun qual.

    What say you? And, a related question: In your opinion, should a qual be shot cold? Warm? Tired?

  2. #2
    I think failure of the pistol part causing a failure of the shotgun qual is stupid. I also think whining about shooting the shotgun qual last because your tired is stupid.

    The qual course is supposed to demonstrate that a person can appropriately function and fire the shotgun to a minimum standard. The pistol portion does not add to that.

    Jason

  3. #3
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    Just my opinion,

    1) You rarely get to choose what condition you’re in when called upon to use force. I’ve been to, and run exercises that were deliberately designed to cause some degree of exhaustion before being required to perform.

    2) Shotgun (or carbine) skills training and testing for LEOs should involve transition to the handgun and effectively using either gun. Without knowing the target or range CNS shots might be a bit severe. Part of our old requalification course for shotguns involved loading four in the gun, two in a side saddle, full magazine in the handgun. Shooter then engaged a six plate rack and two pepper poppers with a par time.

    3) Did a significant number of other people fail this same test?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Français View Post
    Recently, I observed a quarrel between a firearms instructor and an agent at a shotgun qual, and I'd like to get the PF LE forum's take on it. The FI had chosen to make the shotgun qual the very last event of a somewhat fatiguing day of shooting and moving barricades around the range. The shotgun qual itself calls for transitioning to pistol and making two headshots at the end when the shotgun runs dry. It is a pass/fail qual, and the agent, experiencing some arm tremors due to fatigue, missed one of the headshots. Let me be clear: No one disputed that he failed, and no one said anything about pencil-whipping anything. But, he held that A) it was dumb to put the qual at the end of the range day when people are tired, and that B) the qual was dumb for allowing a situation in which a missed pistol shot caused a failure on a shotgun qual.

    What say you? And, a related question: In your opinion, should a qual be shot cold? Warm? Tired?

    Failure due to the pistol shots is cool. They are missed shots. Thus, they are shots that went downrange for an unintended hit.

    My preference is that quals be run completely cold. One will be tired having stood on a post in bad weather for hours on end and then having make a shot under stress; so, being "tired" is not really a thing.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  5. #5
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    I preferred to run qualifications early in the day or, alternatively, right after lunch. Qualifications are stressful for some officers. The sooner, they're out of the way, the more likely you are to keep officers engaged in other aspects of the training. That other training can be stressful or in less-than-perfect weather, but at least no one is worrying about bureaucratic consequences of a DQ. Running the Q courses early gives you some time during the training day to work with any problem shooters.

    The Q course we used at my former agency included a transition to pistols in one stage. When the shotgun ran dry, the officer drew the pistol and covered the target. This was bureaucratic convenience rather than brilliance in training. The host agency insisted weapons be dry when not on the actual range. Since officers might have empty pistols when the ran the shotgun course, it was simpler not to have them fire (as well as making scoring easier).

    As far as the agent arguing with the firearms instructor over timing of the shotgun course in this case: Would you like some whine with your dinner? I prefer to run Q courses earlier in the day, but that's personal preferenc, not something from a burning bush.

  6. #6
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Run the course cold on department quals. If they fail, remediate and run it again.

    In the academy we tend to run the qual course (first attempt) right before lunch after they’ve gotten warmed up.

    The Agent is a whiny little bitch.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
    www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    My old org - Quals were shot cold, pistol first, then the rest of the weapons. Where I teach? The students are warmed up before the scored school drills. I'd shoot them in the beginning of the range "day."

    I'm fine with scored handgun runs in the shotgun qual, a co-worker had to finish a shotgun fight with his pistol.

  8. #8
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    I prefer to run qual's cold, as the most important measure of skill is what you can do cold, on demand. I agree with Lee about the pistol shots. If they are part of the qual, they should be hits.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post
    I prefer to run qual's cold, as the most important measure of skill is what you can do cold, on demand. I agree with Lee about the pistol shots. If they are part of the qual, they should be hits.
    --------------------
    Exactly.

    Most of the times people have confronted me with possible violence I was not feeling my best.
    The test is what can you do cold when you are tired, sick, damaged etc....

    Agent should harden up and work on his skills and conditioning.

  10. #10
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    I run quals cold then do the days or nights training. The agent needs to suck it up. If you need to preform for real, it will be cold. And how many of us have gone to work tired, sick, stressed etc. Even though we try to avoid it, it's not always possible to leave home at home... If it happens for real, there won't be a warm up, there won't be a re shoot and there won't be any remedial training session...
    Be Aware-Stay Safe. Gunfighting Is A Thinking Man's Game. So We Might Want To Bring Thinking Back Into It.

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