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Thread: Precision Rifle reloading discussions

  1. #1
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    Precision Rifle reloading discussions

    So, I'll start an area for long range reloading discussions.

    A specific question I have is concerning load development. How much load development gets done at distance vs the 100m standard? I am a fan of Dan Newberry's Optimal Charge Weight method of working up a load for my rifles since I don't have access to a chrono. I very often have access to a 100m range, but due to our local terrain (E NC forests), almost never get to stretch out the distance. The only other range I can realistically get to only goes to 200m. Have you guys seen the accurate loads worked up at 100 remain accurate at other distances? I intuit the answer is always "verify at the distances you want to shoot at", but, what results have you seen? It seems like most develop their load at 100, get the zero, and then just start applying the dope. One thought is to load develop at a distance you most commonly shoot at, or a mid-point to cover both close in and out far. However, I have read that most load development is at 100 to remove shooter/wind/etc error and focus on the rifle and ammo. Over to you guys for discussion.
    @Skinner Precision, LLC @LittleLebowski, @SecondsCount, @awp_101, @Clusterfrack, @walker2713, @NH Shooter, @CS Tactical, and any other long-boy operators I have missed in the call-out.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    I use the OCW method as well. I always begin at 100y with that and find the charge weight that seems like a winner. Some bullets are easier than others, some “never quite get there”. Once I find the weight, I will normally then fine tune the seating. I normally start .020 off the lands. Once that is all done, I normally then take it out to distance. We have a more distant public range near me that goes to 300y. I will use that for an additional step occasionally. I’ve specifically used it for milsurps (K98 and Enfield) that in reality aren’t true “precision” as an intermediate step before ai take them further out. For my two true “precision rifles” I’ll omit that and go immediately further out. I have access to a pasture and will normally set out steel at 400y, 600-700, and then 1000y. Honestly, I cannot ever recall a load in either .308 or .300 that I further tuned (via charge weight or seating depth) once I took it out to distance.

    I use a chronograph quite a bit. IMHO, it gives you that “final card” that helps make decisions on loads. If the velocities are tight, SDs good and in the range I’m looking for, the rest of it normally has already fallen into place. I use a LabRadar, my buddy likes the MagnetoSpeed.

    I’ve always been able to tell a LOT at 100y using the above method.

    Fun stuff.
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  3. #3
    I’m in for this thread. Thanks for starting one.

    I also have limited access to ranges beyond 100yds. Often I will develop a load at 100, using a chrono to watch speeds, ES and SD. Tuning seating depth and use a barrel tuner to tune a load that is: within my desired speed window, accurate, and low ES/SD. I then use my Kestrel to model it out to 1000+. Then I will go to a local match, sometimes with a practice day. I use the velocity tune function to match the actual bullet flight and drop to the Kestrel model. Custom drag profile for the bullet preferred. That gets me pretty close. Yes I would love to have a 1k range in my back yard. Tuning at range is much better. But I do the best I can.

    My current bullets are Sierra 107s (6BRA) and 115DTACs (6x47 or 6 Creed). I’m also adding 88 ELDMs (22-250AI and maybe 22BR this summer). The cost of bullets / availability drove me to the 88 ELDM. I just bought a bunch in bulk from Blue Collar Reloading.

    The component shortage is killing us all. I’d prefer to stay 6BRA, but after my stash of 107s is gone, I’m not sure if I can find more. I’d rather not switch all the time. Hence I want to buy at least 3000-4000 bullets at a time (wear out two barrels). Can’t do that right now. So my bullets for the next year or two will be 115DTACs and 88ELDMs. I have a stash of both.
    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master"

  4. #4
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    @TOTS,
    Good thread and questions. I think a chrono is essential, but a cheap one is ok as long as it’s consistent.

    My approach is to develop loads that aren’t sensitive to barrel wear, powder and bullet batches, and small weighing errors. I do not enjoy fiddling with loads, and sacrifice the best BC for bullets that are robust to those variables, and are stable transonically.

    My .308 load is a 175 SMK clone of the Gold Medal Match. My .260 load still uses old school SMK, but can consistently match G7 ballistics out to a mile. No ELD bullets for me. They are just too finicky.

    My development protocol is just a standard OCW experiment, and I’ll typically choose the fastest stable node.
    @JCL has more knowledge and experience in load development.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  5. #5
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    Reading the above posts jogged my brain a bit...

    I too will enter that 100y data into Ballistic AE (yeah...I know there’s better products out there) and use that initially as I take it out to distance. I’ll try to adjust the BC to match what I’m seeing in real life, and also make notes in addition. I’ve had BC adjustments on the Hornady ELD/ELDm the most. Especially the 225gr in the .300. (They were touting it as .777, which I found to be a bit of a stretch.) The Sierra 175gr SMK (my preferred .308 bullet) notsomuch. It’s pretty predictable. I’m not sure if that’s more of a bullet issue or the fact that I don’t expect as much out of the R700/175gr/.308 combo past about 6-700y.

    Depending on the day and the phase of the moon etc... the “crossover point” between fine ballistics and my skill on that particular trigger pull can become problematic at longer ranges. Lol. I’m just a hack hobbyist.
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  6. #6
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
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    The terms OCW, ladders, nodes, and tune get thrown around a lot these days but are something shooters have strived for in their loads since the beginning of bullets and gunpowder. If you are looking for consistent velocity, it will be hard to see that on paper at 100 yards. A chrono can help you but I rarely get out the chrono, and typically go for the most accurate 5 shot group at 100. I shoot the string a couple times to confirm and then hit the long range to see how it performs.

    I usually use Lapua brass because it lasts a long time and is very consistent. Bullet choices are from Sierra, Nosler, and Hornady. Sierra bullets have been very consistent for me, then Nosler, and lastly Hornady.

    Powder is a variable that always surprises me. If I am going to be shooting inside of 600 yards, at 2 MOA or larger targets, I just throw the powder and seat the bullet. If I am shooting beyond that then I will trickle if the thrown charges are greater than +/- 0.1 grains. I try to use powders that throw well through my measure.

    In the last couple of years, I have started using a mandrel die to control neck thickness. In 223/5.56, with LC brass, I have been seeing a substantial improvement in accuracy when doing this.

    I do anneal my brass but more for longer life than neck tension, and typically do it every five firings.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  7. #7
    Site Supporter walker2713's Avatar
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    Precision

    Interesting discussion! I’ll join in…

    Load development can be done without a chronograph but its a damn sight easier with one. The $150 will get the job done, but I’ve used Magnetospeed for years but now am working with a Labradar.

    Currently I’m not loading for many calibers, bullet and powder combinations. I’ve tried to simplify my life as I mostly shoot 300 and 600 yard matches at our clubs range. The berm is at 750yds and we’ve got several steel targets at different distances set for the PRS matches but I only shoot bench rest, using a 6 Dasher and a 6BR.I’ve used a lot of different bullets, most Berger 105s, Sierra 107s and Bart’s Hammers in 105. A couple of years ago I switched to Hornady 110gr A-tip….$$$ but very accurate and easy to work with in loading.

    I’m not sure what there is on this site, but I think there are numerous threads on the subject of the pros and cons on differences in load development on 100 yds/meter as opposed to 200 or other distances at the accurateshooter.com forum website. I’ve found that to be the gold standard in terms of long distance/precision shooting.

    Looking forward to learning and sharing,

    George
    Gun Free Zones Aren’t an Inhibition….they’re an Invitation.

  8. #8
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    …The Sierra 175gr SMK (my preferred .308 bullet) notsomuch. It’s pretty predictable. I’m not sure if that’s more of a bullet issue or the fact that I don’t expect as much out of the R700/175gr/.308 combo past about 6-700y.
    1300 yds is doable with this load and a good rifle.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by walker2713 View Post
    Interesting discussion! I’ll join in…

    Load development can be done without a chronograph but its a damn sight easier with one. The $150 will get the job done, but I’ve used Magnetospeed for years but now am working with a Labradar.

    Currently I’m not loading for many calibers, bullet and powder combinations. I’ve tried to simplify my life as I mostly shoot 300 and 600 yard matches at our clubs range. The berm is at 750yds and we’ve got several steel targets at different distances set for the PRS matches but I only shoot bench rest, using a 6 Dasher and a 6BR.I’ve used a lot of different bullets, most Berger 105s, Sierra 107s and Bart’s Hammers in 105. A couple of years ago I switched to Hornady 110gr A-tip….$$$ but very accurate and easy to work with in loading.

    I’m not sure what there is on this site, but I think there are numerous threads on the subject of the pros and cons on differences in load development on 100 yds/meter as opposed to 200 or other distances at the accurateshooter.com forum website. I’ve found that to be the gold standard in terms of long distance/precision shooting.

    Looking forward to learning and sharing,

    George
    Accurate shooter! Thanks. I’ll look into that forum. I’ve read some on there when researching scopes, but never thought to look at reloading info there.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    Again...discussion is jogging my preoccupied brain...

    It’s always interesting how some “things” seem to work especially well for some, while others it doesn’t return such measurable difference. If I had to pick the two things for ME that I got the greatest return in accuracy from, I’d list using a Sinclair Neck Uniformer as #1 and using a Forester Bushing Die as #2. (OK, painstakingly measuring charges as #3.)

    The neck uniformer I use right prior to bullet seating. I run thru all the cases in the lot I’m going to load. Then, when I seat the bullet, I’m VERY in tune with the amount of pressure needed to seat the bullet. If one is a bit loose or tight, I’ll either dump it and set the case aside for another trip thru the bushing die and neck uniformer (maybe re-anneal as well)...or...load it, Mark it with a Sharpie and use it for cold bore/sighters. I have an older GemPro scale that I’ll actually measure to .01 with, using tweezers to add/subtract single grains of H1000 (.300) or Varget/RL17 (.308). My buddy, a more accomplished distance guy than me, thinks the powder measuring thing is laughable...but it puts me in my “Happy Place”.

    Funny on the bullets too. I tried EVERYTHING in my R700 MilSpec. Hornady, (all the AMAX and ELDs), Berger’s of every conceivable profile and weight, Noslers...you name it. Nope. It likes those 175gr SMKs like it’s the only thing in town. The .300? It was my buddies gun originally until the 300 Norma bug bit him. I bought it knowing how well it shot. I’ve seen him ding steel at 1mi+ with it consistently. He shot Bergers exclusively. When I got the gun, he gave me some already loaded ammo with it. The Berger’s didn’t like me again. I decided to go down the Hornady ELD one more time. It loves both the 208 and the 225s, along with the older 208 AMAX.

    The Hide is a decent site too, but be prepared to shovel thru a lot of shenanigans and get a good BS filter.


    Yep. The 175smk is no slouch. This was at about 1080yds If I recall correctly. The lighter hits are from the .308, the darker ones the WinMag.


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