ASP 10 Round Dot Assessment. (Dot Torture short course)

[David S.]

Use a Dot Torture target or any target with eight 2" circles. Like Dot Torture, there's no time limit for shots.

Drill Explanation:

You need 8 circles of 2” diameter. Print the target above, put it at 3 yards to start. You can work from the holster or, if your range doesn’t allow that, work from low ready.

Draw/up and fire 2 shots at dot 1
Draw/up and fire 1 shot at dot 2. Repeat.
Draw/up and fire 1 shot at dot 3, one shot at dot 4.
Draw/up and fire 1 shot at dot 5 dominant hand only.
Draw/up and fire 1 shot at dot 6, support hand only.
Draw/up and fire 1 shot at dot 7, reload, 1 shot at dot 8.

When you can run it clean at 3, move the target back to 4, then 5, etc. More than 7 is probably not necessary.

With ammo prices the way they are, this seems like a solid use of ten rounds.

[JCN]

Use a Dot Torture target or any target with eight 2" circles. Like Dot Torture, there's no time limit for shots.

With ammo prices the way they are, this seems like a solid use of ten rounds.

I like those. Would make the additional recommendation that people track their personal best times on strings and even if there’s not a time limit, hold themselves accountable and track the times to get more out of the drill.

Pressure training is important for stress resistance and adding just a whiff of internal competition with yourself doesn’t cost anything but can really enhance the training.

[psalms144.1]

I like those. Would make the additional recommendation that people track their personal best times on strings and even if there’s not a time limit, hold themselves accountable and track the times to get more out of the drill.

Pressure training is important for stress resistance and adding just a whiff of internal competition with yourself doesn’t cost anything but can really enhance the training.

Respectfully disagree for folks who are NOT experienced, competition driven shooters. I've shot variants of the Dot Torture numerous times with newer shooters, in it's intended role as a pure accuracy drill stressing fundamentals of grips, sights, and trigger press. Most of those people can't shoot it clean at 3 yards with no time pressure. Add the timer, and it becomes a pointless drill, for THEM.

You are a hard core, dedicated competition shooter. What's good for you and your training is in an entirely different multiverse from the "average" shooter.

[JCN]

Respectfully disagree for folks who are NOT experienced, competition driven shooters. I've shot variants of the Dot Torture numerous times with newer shooters, in it's intended role as a pure accuracy drill stressing fundamentals of grips, sights, and trigger press. Most of those people can't shoot it clean at 3 yards with no time pressure. Add the timer, and it becomes a pointless drill, for THEM.

You are a hard core, dedicated competition shooter. What's good for you and your training is in an entirely different multiverse from the "average" shooter.

I think that’s an interesting discussion. That drill would not be useful for me and I was giving the advice with the context for non competition shooters.

If I had someone who didn’t have the mechanics of hitting a 2” circle at 3 yards, I wouldn’t have them live range drawing and reloading. I’d have them do that in dry only and focus maximizing the live range time on the shooting mechanics.

I also would not do any precision work at 3 yards to a small target because height over bore and for a new shooter they might think that’s the sight picture they need for shots at 7 and 15 yards.

So if I had someone in the group you were talking about, I would just work on shooting 6” circles at 7 yards rather than 2” targets at 3 due to sight and dot offset.

Assuming they have more than basic mechanics and have spent a little time doing some dry work drawing and reloading at home, they’re starting to dip their toes into self defense shooting preparation. And for that, no pressure draws aren’t going to be the goal.

So that’s the level I was recommending the tracking personal bests for.

Under that minimum skill level, I’d do 6” circles at 7 with slow doubles rather than monkey with dot torture or adding additional live range manipulation.

I don’t like 2” at 3 yards because of sight offset for noobs that won’t understand what they’re seeing.

[JCN]

@psalms144.1

IMO as someone who understands shooting mechanics and skill layering (which isn’t a competition versus non-competition thing), the most important things in live range sessions are:

1. Do the bullets go where you think they’re going to go? If not, then why not? Note that’s different from going where you wanted them to go. It’s based off noticing and observing the sight at press and ignition. Depending on the level of the student it can be illustrated with a laser.

2. Recoil management. Do you have control of the gun or does the gun have control over you? How stable and “athletic” are you in your stance and grip?

Those are universal shooting concepts.

For example:

I’ll tell them that the goal is for stability of the muzzle through the trigger press and that’s what they’re looking for.



Laser demonstration can be useful how trigger press can be isolated from grip as well.

If you want additional support for this:

My wife has been to the range maybe 5 times total in her life.

We went recently but the last time before that was pre-pandemic.

No dry fire in the last three years.

Look at the laser stability in the first gun in the below video.

Look at her able to use striker trigger, SA trigger, DA revolver all without specific coaching because she understands trigger pull.



You can see how stable the laser is and how it doesn’t pull off target, just “blinks” when she shoots (recoil breaks contact with the finger contact switch but returns right there (recoil control!).

This is for someone who has been to the range 5 total times and less than 300 total rounds in her lifetime.

My advice is for efficient learning. It’s not about competition.

(Forgive the Rattler recoil control, that was before I started working on long guns, I could help with recoil control stance better now)

[gringop]

Respectfully disagree for folks who are NOT experienced, competition driven shooters.

"Forget it Jake, it's JCN."

Soon we will see multiple videos of JCN shooting lightning fast drills with unhuman accuracy to prove that a new reduced round count version of a well established, untimed, accuracy specific, drill is wrong wrong wrong and that we, the great unwashed, need to shut up and learn.

Gringop

[JCN]

"Forget it Jake, it's JCN."

Soon we will see multiple videos of JCN shooting lightning fast drills with unhuman accuracy to prove that a new reduced round count version of a well established, untimed, accuracy specific, drill is wrong wrong wrong and that we, the great unwashed, need to shut up and learn.

Gringop

Did you see the videos of my noob wife shooting?

This is about learning and not about me shooting.

You can put your fingers in your ears and say “lalalala… not listening to JCN…. Lalalala”

That’s just fine if you like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

I know people love to pray to the altar of Dot Torture and any constructive context is verboten…

If perverted into zero time pressure, Dot Torture becomes “shoot a bunch at a 2” circle but waste your live range session doing things that are better trained in a different context.”

You might as well do a Super Dot Torture where you cook breakfast between the draw and the first shot and write a letter to your mama between the draw and your shot in the second string.

If I have 30 min on the range with a new shooter, I’m going to spend it doing the things that will improve their skill the fastest.

Tracking metrics is pretty widely accepted as a learning tool.

[David S.]

To be clear, your critique of this abbreviated Dot Torture is the same as your critique of the OG Dot Torture?

[JCN]

@gringop

Is shooting at untimed 25 yard B8s as useful as shooting the Pressburg No Fail where you have to put 10 rounds in the black with each draw and single shot being within a 3.5 second par?

If people like accuracy for accuracy sake, fine. Shoot the B8 untimed. That’s valid.

But the draw and reload stuff just wastes time training if you don’t care about that.

If you do care about the draw and reload, practice that timed at home in dry.

Trying to do it both ways just wastes time and burns in bad habits. You’ll never willfully do a slow draw in a self defense situation, why add that muscle confusion to the drill if the goal is just pure accuracy.

I don’t think you’ll listen, but my issue with Dot Torture untimed is that it’s inefficient and can burn in bad habits if you don’t have an internal timer.

Just shoot dots and then go do a bunch of draws separately. But don’t confuse draw mechanics with a pure accuracy drill.

[JCN]

To be clear, your critique of this abbreviated Dot Torture is the same as your critique of the OG Dot Torture?

Yes. I think ASP and OG Dot Torture are both useful and valid if even a ballpark time tracking metric is added.

Then they become like the Pressburg No Fail. There’s plenty of time if the mechanics are there, but not enough time in the world if the mechanics are not.

If people don’t have the mechanics to hit a black B8 slow fire, they should work on that in a range session and not try and add the draw to that drill yet.

Same thing with the Dot Tortures. If they can’t do it mechanically, spend the time working on the mechanics and don’t take the range time doing a draw that would be different in speed and aggression than their self defense draw.