How People Lost Random Encounter Gun Fights

[D-der]

Seeing threads like this remind me why I am a Site Supporter of this place.

100%, I'd seen the first page of this thread and missed the rest until now,
the shared knowledge is beyond appreciated.

[bigfoote51]

I'm new to forum and this is one of the first Threads I've read. My main concern is defensive, and this Thread has been very informative. Thank you.

[Dov]

No. Nobody got hurt or killed due to lack of ammunition, regardless of capacity. Note this included long guns and some were single shot. Targeted violence was different, capacity did come in to play sometimes, but that's one of the reasons I say targeted frequently looks different. Random violence is often a much easier problem to solve when compared to targeted violence by a dedicated attacker/group of attackers. The attackers are often more dedicated to the fight, the goal is often the death of the defender (as opposed to economic gain or sexual gratification), and targeted violence that was not domestic related often involved multiple assailants. Even worse, the defender was often fighting from an ambush situation, distances were longer, the assailant frequently had concealment or cover, and attackers with long guns were much more prevalent. Some folks were dead with empty guns in their hands in those situations, and guns that held a lot more than 5.

It sounds like that for long guns action type didn't matter at all, if even single shots led to positive outcome if owner was familiar and smooth with long gun operation?

Assuming for long guns if you had single shots, you also had bolts, pumps, & levers besides semi auto in your data?

[BehindBlueI's]

It sounds like that for long guns action type didn't matter at all, if even single shots led to positive outcome if owner was familiar and smooth with long gun operation?

Assuming for long guns if you had single shots, you also had bolts, pumps, & levers besides semi auto in your data?

Pumps and doubles for sure. I can't recall any bolt actions or lever actions and I think they would stick out in my memory. I didn't keep track of action type, however, so memory is all I have to go by.

As long as sufficient violence was applied up front, even if unsuccessful in killing/wounding, random attackers found somewhere else to be. Dedicated attackers sometimes pressed the assault. Lover's pinwheel (like a lover's triangle, but moving and with more parts...) where the attacker was shot at with a shotgun by a defender with the pattern striking his vehicle near him, attacker retreated long enough to reload, and then reengaged comes to mind. I'm not even positive he registered being shot at, as he never engaged shotgun daddy, too enraged at his existing targets.

@BehindBlueI’s

Do you have data on how the attackers were armed? I’m guessing all of them were, but I am wondering what rough percentage had a knife, firearm, blunt object, etc.

Sorry I missed this question when you asked it. I do have the data. Handguns are the runaway leader, with knives and long guns making respectable appearances. I'd have to break the numbers back out, but IIRC it tracked with UCR data fairly well.

[Wake27]

I missed this thread when it was originally posted and don’t even remember where I recently saw it linked but this is awesome information, thanks for taking the time to post it.

[11B10]

I missed this thread when it was originally posted and don’t even remember where I recently saw it linked but this is awesome information, thanks for taking the time to post it.

I also missed the initial post, but am very grateful to find it recently. I am anxiously awaiting the book.

The good stuff never ends on p-f!

[Dog Face Gremlin]

BBI, thanks for posting that.

A question. How often would the outcome have been different if the victim had been armed with DB's J-Frame in a pocket with their hand on it?

I hesitated to even ask.

Seen the "Wolf" twice over the years and this was my first scenario, hand on my "J" frame in my coat pocket....he wasn't six feet in front of me and I had no room to draw from concealment......but, Ihad him from the get go and he saw it in my eyes and decided today wasn't his day and left......good day for both of us.....I soon learned street crime is up close and personal not 15yrds. away and multiple mags.....just sayin'.

[Dov]

Pumps and doubles for sure. I can't recall any bolt actions or lever actions and I think they would stick out in my memory. I didn't keep track of action type, however, so memory is all I have to go by.

As long as sufficient violence was applied up front, even if unsuccessful in killing/wounding, random attackers found somewhere else to be. Dedicated attackers sometimes pressed the assault. Lover's pinwheel (like a lover's triangle, but moving and with more parts...) where the attacker was shot at with a shotgun by a defender with the pattern striking his vehicle near him, attacker retreated long enough to reload, and then reengaged comes to mind. I'm not even positive he registered being shot at, as he never engaged shotgun daddy, too enraged at his existing targets.






Sorry I missed this question when you asked it. I do have the data. Handguns are the runaway leader, with knives and long guns making respectable appearances. I'd have to break the numbers back out, but IIRC it tracked with UCR data fairly well.

I suspect since these were average people many (most?) shotguns were loaded with birdshot? Since you don't mention ammunition for any of these events, I assume it was never material in the outcome for any of the gun types as long as it was functional ammunition?

Want to say thanks again for this really impressive thread.

And when, I hope, you publish a book please @ me so I don't miss chance to buy a copy or two.

[BehindBlueI's]

I suspect since these were average people many (most?) shotguns were loaded with birdshot? Since you don't mention ammunition for any of these events, I assume it was never material in the outcome for any of the gun types as long as it was functional ammunition?

Want to say thanks again for this really impressive thread.

And when, I hope, you publish a book please @ me so I don't miss chance to buy a copy or two.

Ammo type never mattered, the attackers just weren't dedicated enough to stick around once the long gun was fired in the contexts I've described.

[leekellerking]

For a deeper dive I recommend BBI's chapter in the book edited by @Mas,
Straight Talk on Armed Defense: What the Experts Want You to Know
https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Talk.../dp/B0758VHZM4

I just got that book from John Hearne when I took his cognitive pistol course a few weeks ago. I guess I need to actually READ it.