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Thread: How People Lost Random Encounter Gun Fights

  1. #11
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BN View Post
    BBI, thanks for posting that.

    A question. How often would the outcome have been different if the victim had been armed with DB's J-Frame in a pocket with their hand on it?

    I hesitated to even ask.

    In the scenario of pocket revolver vs street robbery it was effective 100% of the time. Where it sucked was seated victims, generally in the context of a carjacking. They needed to talk themselves into a position they could draw from if they were going to employ the revolver. None of the sex crimes, successful or not, involved a pocket carry.
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  2. #12
    The density of the lessons to be had in the header post is breathtaking. Thank you for the reality check on so many matters.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post, and the thread, BBI. Good stuff.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff, @BehindBlueI's. Do you have a rough breakdown on #1? Just wondering if one form of nonfunction stood out.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  5. #15
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Interesting stuff, @BehindBlueI's. Do you have a rough breakdown on #1? Just wondering if one form of nonfunction stood out.
    I have exact numbers of each, but I don't want to get that granular as I don't think it adds anything to the overall lesson to be drawn. Have a gun that is dead nuts reliable and in a functioning state, that you can defeat any safeties on command in adverse conditions, and have the mental state of being ready to kill if needed pre-made. (I understand the legal shoot to stop/shoot to kill rationale and how we generally avoid the word 'kill' like the plague, but mindset wise you need to be ready to kill so you can accept that outcome)
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  6. #16
    Thank you so much for this information, this is really good stuff. Seems the obvious takeaways are to carry a reliable gun that you can operate and access under stress, have at least a foundational understanding of grappling, and be physically fit/able to fight for several minutes. These types of posts that breakdown years of real-world experience into smaller bits of useful information make PF the best firearms site on the web.

    Just to confirm since I'm occasionally carrying a snub, did only having 5 shots ever result in a negative result? I assume not since you stated that people ran out of time before bullets, but thought I'd ask.

  7. #17
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
    Just to confirm since I'm occasionally carrying a snub, did only having 5 shots ever result in a negative result? I assume not since you stated that people ran out of time before bullets, but thought I'd ask.
    No. Nobody got hurt or killed due to lack of ammunition, regardless of capacity. Note this included long guns and some were single shot. Targeted violence was different, capacity did come in to play sometimes, but that's one of the reasons I say targeted frequently looks different. Random violence is often a much easier problem to solve when compared to targeted violence by a dedicated attacker/group of attackers. The attackers are often more dedicated to the fight, the goal is often the death of the defender (as opposed to economic gain or sexual gratification), and targeted violence that was not domestic related often involved multiple assailants. Even worse, the defender was often fighting from an ambush situation, distances were longer, the assailant frequently had concealment or cover, and attackers with long guns were much more prevalent. Some folks were dead with empty guns in their hands in those situations, and guns that held a lot more than 5.
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  8. #18
    - Is there any data on the effectiveness of OC spray against random violence? I'd guess that it might be statistically "more" effective due to its simplicity and the lower "willingness" hurdle. On the other hand, I'm guessing it is less effective against "targeted violence."


    - This is presumably outside the scope of this thread, but I'll put it out there anyway. In what percentage of targeted violence does the victim know the attacker? How often does that familiarity negatively affect "willingness to kill?" I could see how the willingness to kill (apply deadly force to) a known person is something that many people might be unprepared to do, even if their mindset is generally dialed in.
    David S.

  9. #19
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    - Is there any data on the effectiveness of OC spray against random violence? I'd guess that it might be statistically "more" effective due to its simplicity and the lower "willingness" hurdle. On the other hand, I'm guessing it is less effective against "targeted violence."


    - This is presumably outside the scope of this thread, but I'll put it out there anyway. In what percentage of targeted violence does the victim know the attacker? How often does that familiarity negatively affect "willingness to kill?" I could see how the willingness to kill (apply deadly force to) a known person is something that many people might be unprepared to do, even if their mindset is generally dialed in.
    I don't have enough data on OC deployments to feel comfortable making any sweeping recommendation or condemnation, but I do not carry it myself.

    Domestics obviously knew each other, including both intimate partners and non-intimate relationships (ie, adult son vs father or sibling vs sibling). Other criminal on criminal many were known associates/rivals. It's hard to pin down how many of the 'unknowns' were also knowns but the victim was uncooperative (or dead) and the case remained unsolved. I would not put a hard percentage on it, but true unknowns are definitely the minority. The majority of those were I actually believed the victim didn't know the suspect in any way was vice set-ups. Guy goes to buy pills and/or hook up with a prostitute but it's a ruse and he's robbed sort of things. Those are not included, as they are criminal on criminal.
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  10. #20
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I have exact numbers of each, but I don't want to get that granular as I don't think it adds anything to the overall lesson to be drawn. Have a gun that is dead nuts reliable and in a functioning state, that you can defeat any safeties on command in adverse conditions, and have the mental state of being ready to kill if needed pre-made. (I understand the legal shoot to stop/shoot to kill rationale and how we generally avoid the word 'kill' like the plague, but mindset wise you need to be ready to kill so you can accept that outcome)
    Fair enough. That plus the following tell me what I wanted to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    No. Nobody got hurt or killed due to lack of ammunition, regardless of capacity.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

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