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Thread: How People Lost Random Encounter Gun Fights

  1. #1
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    How People Lost Random Encounter Gun Fights

    First off, what this IS NOT: This is not targeted violence, which often looks different. This is not police actions, which often look different. This is regular non-criminals who were approached by armed criminals in an attempt to rob them for the most part, although some were attempted sex crimes and some were thrill murders.

    This is also not inclusive of situational awareness fails, etc. The reader is expected to be familiar with the OODA loop, MUC concepts, etc. We all realize we win every fight we don’t engage in, and many of these were avoidable…but that’s not the point of this thread.

    What this IS: Trends I observed across roughly 100 cases of failed self defense by regular citizens faced with irregular circumstances of random targeting for crime. The majority of these were cases I personally worked as lead or assisting detective, with the remainder being cases worked by other detectives I worked with who I could question on the circumstances, review case files, etc. None are from media accounts, 3rd hand accounts, or self-reporting alone. Note these are not in order by percentage, and multiple factors were present in some cases, but these are by far the most common factors in a loss:

    1) Presenting a non-functioning weapon. Empty chamber carry, failure to get a thumb safety off, mechanically inoperative gun, or mental inability to pull the trigger. Pulling a gun without the will and ability to pull the trigger got people shot and/or stabbed and/or disarmed in multiple cases. In cases of serial robbers, often when the robbers had never shot any other victim who was compliant.
    2) Off body carry. Reaching for off body carry often tipped off the bad guy that non-compliance was coming, got their attention on the defender, and resulted in being shot or trading shots as both parties pulled triggers near simultaneously.
    3) Entanglement. Particularly with long guns which otherwise enjoy a *very* favorable win ratio, entanglement often resulted in disarmament or a gun that became non-functional. Entangled defenders were often disarmed, had their gun disabled, or were injured/exhausted until ineffective and the attacker either continued the attack or disengaged and fled.
    4) Multiple attackers. Especially when combined with entanglement. Multiple attackers at a distance tended to flee, but still win rates were lower due to some exceptions which I’ll touch on more in a bit.

    There were other factors that appeared much less frequently, but those are the major 4.


    One on one encounters, speed/surprise/violence of attack was nearly 100% effective in either outright killing the bad guy, injuring him to the point of surrender (physical or psychological stops counted), or putting him to flight. Everybody, win or lose, ran out of time before they ran out of ammunition regardless of what they were armed with. One side or the other was down or in flight. Multiple bad guys was harder. Generally they were put to flight once the fighting started, but if one or more were in close proximity and went for the grapple they tended to fight it out until they either won or disarmed the victim and fled with or without shooting/stabbing the victim.
    On very rare occasion a crew was professional enough to have an overwatch who shot the defender from ambush while he was engaging the bad guys he saw, but this was always occupational violence (targeting delivery men, armored car guards, etc) and not random in the same sense a street robbery or stranger rape attempt is.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  2. #2
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Book reference

    For a deeper dive I recommend BBI's chapter in the book edited by @Mas,
    Straight Talk on Armed Defense: What the Experts Want You to Know
    https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Talk.../dp/B0758VHZM4
    “There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie

  3. #3
    Very educational, thank you. This is an excellent example of what I come here for.

  4. #4
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    Thank you BBI, and I second the book recommendation.
    'Nobody ever called the fire department because they did something intelligent'

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    3) Entanglement. Particularly with long guns which otherwise enjoy a *very* favorable win ratio, entanglement often resulted in disarmament or a gun that became non-functional. Entangled defenders were often disarmed, had their gun disabled, or were injured/exhausted until ineffective and the attacker either continued the attack or disengaged and fled.
    Is a slide mounted optic a liability in a close contact or entangled fight? I imagine that it's much easier to snag a side mounted optic and make the gun non-functional, compared to a slick iron sighted gun. I'm guessing the "real world" data on entangled fights with RDS equipped handguns is sparse. I'm curious if there are any observations coming out of the "entangled fight" corner of the training world?

    @SouthNarc
    @Cecil Burch
    David S.

  6. #6
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    Is a slide mounted optic a liability in a close contact or entangled fight? I imagine that it's much easier to snag a side mounted optic and make the gun non-functional, compared to a slick iron sighted gun. I'm guessing the "real world" data on entangled fights with RDS equipped handguns is sparse. I'm curious if there are any observations coming out of the "entangled fight" corner of the training world?

    @SouthNarc
    @Cecil Burch

    No data from me and not something I feel qualified to comment on.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    Is a slide mounted optic a liability in a close contact or entangled fight? I imagine that it's much easier to snag a side mounted optic and make the gun non-functional, compared to a slick iron sighted gun. I'm guessing the "real world" data on entangled fights with RDS equipped handguns is sparse. I'm curious if there are any observations coming out of the "entangled fight" corner of the training world?

    @SouthNarc
    @Cecil Burch

    Zero data from my end from real world events, but anecdotally in training with guys who have brought their own sim guns with mRDS (maybe...5-6?) I haven't seen an issue in coursework or the evolutions.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    Is a slide mounted optic a liability in a close contact or entangled fight? I imagine that it's much easier to snag a side mounted optic and make the gun non-functional, compared to a slick iron sighted gun. I'm guessing the "real world" data on entangled fights with RDS equipped handguns is sparse. I'm curious if there are any observations coming out of the "entangled fight" corner of the training world?

    @SouthNarc
    @Cecil Burch

    My experiemce matches Craig's. I have only had maybe 3 or 4 RD mounted training guns come through (I just had a nice one two weeks ago in VA where the guy had a nice, simple, and inexpensive set up on his SIRT), and no problems resulting from that.

    My gut says what we know are best practices in an entangled fight with weapons are still the same with RD guns. The same things we do to keep an attacker from controlling our weapon, or something or someone interfering with the actions of the weapon are the same practices that will clear the extra bit of mechanical stuff stiing on top of the slide. It is a theoretical issue, but one that I don't think matters in reality.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  9. #9
    Thanks for indulging my hardware tangent.

    Now back to this excellent Mindset and Tactics thread.
    David S.

  10. #10
    BBI, thanks for posting that.

    A question. How often would the outcome have been different if the victim had been armed with DB's J-Frame in a pocket with their hand on it?

    I hesitated to even ask.

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