Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: El Presidente question

  1. #1

    El Presidente question

    What is the distance separating the 3 targets?

    I've seen everything from 2 feet to 3 feet to 3 yards. Some say separate the targets edge to edge, some say center to center.

    I'm looking for Jeff Cooper's ORIGINAL El Presidente, preferable with a source link. My GoogleFu has failed me.

    Thanks in Advance.

  2. #2
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    45°21'N 084°57'W
    Following.

    El Prez is dry drill number 10 in my Steve Anderson Dry Practice book I've been using. I have 2/3 scaled USPSA targets at 21' (approx full size at 10 yd) due to where I dry practice (garage.) They are currently set 2 feet apart, but I'd be very curious what "the" distance is supposed to be. Steve doesn't mention a distance in the book.

    Name:  IMG_0512.jpg
Views: 297
Size:  59.6 KB

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluemonday View Post
    What is the distance separating the 3 targets?

    I've seen everything from 2 feet to 3 feet to 3 yards. Some say separate the targets edge to edge, some say center to center.

    I'm looking for Jeff Cooper's ORIGINAL El Presidente, preferable with a source link. My GoogleFu has failed me.

    Thanks in Advance.
    Best I can do is the USPSA version, but they attribute the design to Jeff Cooper.

    3 feet edge to edge is the current accepted standard from a turn draw.

    Name:  95B49D59-4A8F-4F6C-AE7D-BC12AB1E759F.jpg
Views: 266
Size:  31.2 KB

    Of note there are many variations of this too, so there really isn’t a wrong answer. But this is an accepted answer.

    At 30 seconds in, I show a scaled USPSA version. It’s that wide of a transition.

    Pointing at cardboard things....

  4. #4
    There are several references to “3 yards between targets”. I’m at work and don’t have access to Coopers “red book”, but I recall the 3 yards/9 feet between as correct.
    I shot the original “back in the day”, and it’s different when the targets are that far apart…

  5. #5
    In the Jan/Feb 1979 issue of American Handgunner, Jeff Cooper describes the setup as "three I.P.S.C. Option targets are placed ten meters distant, three meters apart".

    Ref:
    https://americanhandgunner.com/1979issues/HJF79.pdf

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jbrimlow View Post
    In the Jan/Feb 1979 issue of American Handgunner, Jeff Cooper describes the setup as "three I.P.S.C. Option targets are placed ten meters distant, three meters apart".

    Ref:
    https://americanhandgunner.com/1979issues/HJF79.pdf
    Thank you!

    This is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    What's interesting is the article states "In its pure form it is shot thus [emphasis added]. . . [and then your quote above].

    While the article cites 3 meters apart, some photos look like they are 1 meter apart, so the way I'm taking this is there are variations of the "pure" original version.

    Thank you and everyone else who responded for being very helpful.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluemonday View Post
    Thank you!

    This is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    What's interesting is the article states "In its pure form it is shot thus [emphasis added]. . . [and then your quote above].

    While the article cites 3 meters apart, some photos look like they are 1 meter apart, so the way I'm taking this is there are variations of the "pure" original version.

    Thank you and everyone else who responded for being very helpful.
    Anytime.

    You probably noticed, but he lists three variations in that article, omitting the concealment requirement, omitting the turn (No turn, it's a Vice Presidente), or having the string after the reload be three headshots instead of six more torso shots (Demi Presidente). Also, note the use of the old IPSC option target, which Karl Rehn details here: https://blog.krtraining.com/2019-pra...arget-designs/

    Cliffs notes is that the 5 point max scoring zone is a 25 cm (~10") circle. Head 5 point scoring zone is 4" for the Demi Presidente.
    Last edited by jbrimlow; 03-01-2022 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jbrimlow View Post
    Anytime.

    You probably noticed, but he lists two variations in that article, omitting the concealment requirement or the turn (No turn, it's a Vice Presidente). Also, note the use of the old IPSC option target, which Karl Rehn details here: https://blog.krtraining.com/2019-pra...arget-designs/

    Cliffs notes is that the 5 point max scoring zone is a 25 cm (~10") circle.
    Copy that. Thanks again!

  9. #9
    A few notes from an old guy:
    1)El Presidente was an evaluation that Cooper came up with to test the members of a Central American governmental protective detail(his description).
    2)It was originally a “par time” eval, 10 seconds being par. Concealment (“a jacket”)was specified. The reload occurred after the 6th shot, so it’s conceivable that a few rounds got dumped on the ground. I believe it was IDPA that set up a slide lock reload. As Comstock scoring became more accepted, and participants got better, par time disappeared, along with the spacing changing. There are other variations, to include IDPA “tactical”- 1,1,2 shots, then 1,1 and a load, etc.
    3)Walt Rauch ran a Simunitions exercise decades ago. No one got out of it “unshot”; fast individuals might get hits on 2 opponents, but the third nailed the “defender”. USPSA had a Nationals “side match” back in the 90s(I think), and open competitors were running clean in under 4 seconds as I recall.
    End of the day, it’s a test that can give a good indication of some competencies: concealed draw on a turn, recoil control, tracking from target to target, a reload, “combat accuracy”, etc.. I think some folks saw it as definitive, and I don’t believe Cooper saw it as such. It was an evaluation.
    My fond memory is shooting it clean with a LW Commander and .45 hardball slightly under par. Might have to try it with my wimpy 9mm…
    It was a standard at Gunsite, especially in the 250 class.

  10. #10
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    45°21'N 084°57'W
    Quote Originally Posted by jbrimlow View Post
    In the Jan/Feb 1979 issue of American Handgunner, Jeff Cooper describes the setup as "three I.P.S.C. Option targets are placed ten meters distant, three meters apart".

    Ref:
    https://americanhandgunner.com/1979issues/HJF79.pdf
    That is pretty cool. I had no idea that there was source material of that era online. Thank you.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •