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Thread: How to bring Support Hand to Gun?

  1. #1

    How to bring Support Hand to Gun?

    How do you bring your support hand to the handgun? What angle/direction do you bring it from? What index are you feeling for?

    For purposes of this discussion let’s ignore where the gun is exactly and ignore the different “counts” of the draw so we can focus on support hand grip talk. We will assume the gun is already in your strong hand somewhere in front of your body. Now you have to bring your support hand to it, identify the appropriate location for your support hand, and create the tension to finalize the grip. How do you do it?

    I didn’t realize there was so many different ways people can do this.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Basic principle: both hands move simultaneously. One for the gun the other either to clear a cover garment or ready to intercept the drawn gun on the way to the point.

    Clap your hands. This is the approximate location where your two hands should meet. Prior to getting there the support hand generally goes to an index point. Either directly to the index point if no cover garment or that index point can be the spot where the cover garment is lifted to. Hand on the chest or belly. Sometimes flat against the body for some, support hand in almost a knife position heal of palm against the sternum area fingers perpendicular to body (pointed toward target). It varies by who you learned from and most importantly what works for you.

    As the gun clears the holster and makes it's way to the point the support hand intercepts the gun hand. The line from the holster to the point should not deviate left or right. The support hand comes over to the gun not the other way around, that wastes precious time. Very often where to two hands meet can vary as the shooter attempts to go faster as in closer to the point.

    The distance between the support hand index position and the gun hand on the way to the point is a matter of inches. It's kind of hard to say much about getting it there.

    Care must be exercised to Never Ever muzzle the support hand.

  3. #3
    I'm fairly adamant about the support hand establishing a "parking spot" flat on the chest and only collecting the pistol in two handed shooting when the pistol is in the bottom edge of the cone of vision.

    This gets unforgiving when people run shorter barreled pistols and the support hand collects out of tasking and not from a traditional "ready" position.

    I think the actual angle is debatable but I tend to lead with my inside index finger middle joint of the support hand and establish that pocket into the outer hump of the second joint of my strong hand index finger.

  4. #4
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    Location can vary a bit by holster type. If you have to clear a cover garment, that might put you hand in a particular position. That’s one reason that a lot of appendix draws end up with a more distinct “L” shape. The support hand naturally comes pretty high when clearing closed front cover rapidly. For OWB, I cheat my hand a little lower and towards the gun, but still try to get the gun up towards my cone of vision as I build my grip (as SN noted).

    This is a good explanation of how to build the grip:


  5. #5
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshs View Post

    This is a good explanation of how to build the grip:

    I've picked up alot of good info from @AsianJedi lately. Came here to post this exact video.
    Taking a break from social media.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post

    I think the actual angle is debatable but I tend to lead with my inside index finger middle joint of the support hand and establish that pocket into the outer hump of the second joint of my strong hand MIDDLE finger.
    I just realized I typed that bass-akwards. Sorry

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    How do you bring your support hand to the handgun? What angle/direction do you bring it from? What index are you feeling for?

    For purposes of this discussion let’s ignore where the gun is exactly and ignore the different “counts” of the draw so we can focus on support hand grip talk. We will assume the gun is already in your strong hand somewhere in front of your body. Now you have to bring your support hand to it, identify the appropriate location for your support hand, and create the tension to finalize the grip. How do you do it?

    I didn’t realize there was so many different ways people can do this.
    Sanch - if you are trying to sort yourself out pay attention to how you recover to the holster from full extension. Where does the support hand begin separating and detaching from the holster?

    I kind of adopted/adapted D.R. Middlebrook's thoughts on the draw. In his book FIST Fire Middlebrook explains that he bought raw footage from just about every camera man at the nationals one year with the idea of developing his draw. What he found was many variations of the draw, but, almost universal duplication in the way competitors recovered to the holster. Middlebrook's theory was that if that's the most efficient way back to the holster, it ought to be a pretty sound way to get out of the holster. Here's a description of the process, as I saw it:

    Stage 1: Grip, Release, Ground
    The first stage starts with the weapon locked into the holster with all retention devices engaged. The officer should be standing as they might be if caught unaware. This means that the officer should practice with their hands in different locations: hanging naturally to the side, up and moving as if speaking to someone, etc. The idea here is that the officer shouldn’t begin in a gunfighter's crouch with their hand hovering over the weapon.

    ~ Grip and Release. The goal is to get a shooting grip on the weapon while it is in the holster. At the same time the shooting grip is obtained, the retention device holding the weapon in the holster should be released. Many shooters reverse this process and release the retention strap on their holster before gripping the weapon without ever realizing they have done so. This adds time to the process while doing nothing to increase the efficiency of the process. At this point the shooter’s trigger finger should be outside the holster, off the trigger. (Properly designed police holsters should not allow the trigger finger to contact the trigger while the weapon is in the holster.)

    ~ Elbow to the rear. The officer should ensure that the elbow of the strong hand is kept tight into the officer’s body while the officer is gripping and releasing the weapon. This ensures the officer does not torque the weapon sideways in the holster, causing it to bind. Additionally, as the weapon clears the holster the elbow is located directly along the desired axis of travel for the weapon. This will allow the weapon to punch to the target with no sideward deviation.

    ~ Ground. At the same time the actions described above are taking place the shooter grounds their support hand onto the chest, thumb up, heel of the hand contacting the sternum, approximately nipple height.

    Stage 2: Clear, Lock, Rock
    The second stage of the draw is where the weapon is actually drawn from the holster. The weapon should be drawn straight up until the end of the barrel is clear of the holster. As the muzzle of the weapon clears the holster, the movement of the weapon should naturally continue upward, and the wrist should lock straight. As the arm continues to draw the weapon upward, the shooter should rotate or rock the arm level. At this point the weapon should be slightly below the armpit and the weapon should be level and indexed on the target or adversary. If the shooter were practicing in front of a mirror and stopped at this point, they should see the muzzle of the weapon indexed on their image. The support hand and strong hand should also be level with each other.

    Stage 3: Index
    During the third stage of the draw the shooter establishes a two-hand grip on the weapon and indexes the weapon under the dominant eye. This is accomplished as the strong hand is moved forward along the rib cage and into contact with the support hand which is moving toward the strong hand from its (support hand) grounded position on the sternum. This may sound awkward but go through it slowly and you will see how the hands seem to naturally find each other helping to establish a proper two-hand grip.

    Traditionally this position has been called the ready position. This terminology has been used to describe a stage of the draw and also to describe the position in which the officer covers an subject. The ready position to cover a subject in no way corresponds to the position described above in Stage 3: Index. The weapon should be at least sternum height and should be centered under the officer’s dominant eye.

    In his book, Fist-Fire: Defensive Speed Shooting, D.R. Middlebrooks calls this a high retention position and explains that the shooter should check three indexes in this position:

    1) Vertical index. Centerline of the weapon positioned directly under the centerline of the dominant eye;
    2) Horizontal index. The bore of the weapon is level to the ground;
    3) Optical index. The axis of the bore pointing directly where the dominant eye is looking.

    Stage 4: Press-Out
    As the hands come together and a two-hand grip is established in the high retention position the weapon is punched straight to the target. If the weapon has been properly indexed, shots can be fired with accuracy as the weapon punches straight out to full extension. At full extension the weapon is interposed between the dominant eye and the target. If the weapon has been properly indexed the sights should be aligned with little or no movement of the hands, wrists or arms.
    Last edited by DDTSGM; 02-27-2022 at 10:49 PM.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Sanch - if you are trying to sort yourself out pay attention to how you recover to the holster from full extension. Where does the support hand begin separating and detaching from the holster?

    I kind of adopted/adapted D.R. Middlebrook's thoughts on the draw. In his book FIST Fire Middlebrook explains that he bought raw footage from just about every camera man at the nationals one year with the idea of developing his draw. What he found was many variations of the draw, but, almost universal duplication in the way competitors recovered to the holster. Middlebrook's theory was that if that's the most efficient way back to the holster, it ought to be a pretty sound way to get out of the holster. Here's a description of the process, as I saw it:

    Stage 1: Grip, Release, Ground
    The first stage starts with the weapon locked into the holster with all retention devices engaged. The officer should be standing as they might be if caught unaware. This means that the officer should practice with their hands in different locations: hanging naturally to the side, up and moving as if speaking to someone, etc. The idea here is that the officer shouldn’t begin in a gunfighter's crouch with their hand hovering over the weapon.

    ~ Grip and Release. The goal is to get a shooting grip on the weapon while it is in the holster. At the same time the shooting grip is obtained, the retention device holding the weapon in the holster should be released. Many shooters reverse this process and release the retention strap on their holster before gripping the weapon without ever realizing they have done so. This adds time to the process while doing nothing to increase the efficiency of the process. At this point the shooter’s trigger finger should be outside the holster, off the trigger. (Properly designed police holsters should not allow the trigger finger to contact the trigger while the weapon is in the holster.)

    ~ Elbow to the rear. The officer should ensure that the elbow of the strong hand is kept tight into the officer’s body while the officer is gripping and releasing the weapon. This ensures the officer does not torque the weapon sideways in the holster, causing it to bind. Additionally, as the weapon clears the holster the elbow is located directly along the desired axis of travel for the weapon. This will allow the weapon to punch to the target with no sideward deviation.

    ~ Ground. At the same time the actions described above are taking place the shooter grounds their support hand onto the chest, thumb up, heel of the hand contacting the sternum, approximately nipple height.

    Stage 2: Clear, Lock, Rock
    The second stage of the draw is where the weapon is actually drawn from the holster. The weapon should be drawn straight up until the end of the barrel is clear of the holster. As the muzzle of the weapon clears the holster, the movement of the weapon should naturally continue upward, and the wrist should lock straight. As the arm continues to draw the weapon upward, the shooter should rotate or rock the arm level. At this point the weapon should be slightly below the armpit and the weapon should be level and indexed on the target or adversary. If the shooter were practicing in front of a mirror and stopped at this point, they should see the muzzle of the weapon indexed on their image. The support hand and strong hand should also be level with each other.

    Stage 3: Index
    During the third stage of the draw the shooter establishes a two-hand grip on the weapon and indexes the weapon under the dominant eye. This is accomplished as the strong hand is moved forward along the rib cage and into contact with the support hand which is moving toward the strong hand from its (support hand) grounded position on the sternum. This may sound awkward but go through it slowly and you will see how the hands seem to naturally find each other helping to establish a proper two-hand grip.

    Traditionally this position has been called the ready position. This terminology has been used to describe a stage of the draw and also to describe the position in which the officer covers an subject. The ready position to cover a subject in no way corresponds to the position described above in Stage 3: Index. The weapon should be at least sternum height and should be centered under the officer’s dominant eye.

    In his book, Fist-Fire: Defensive Speed Shooting, D.R. Middlebrooks calls this a high retention position and explains that the shooter should check three indexes in this position:

    1) Vertical index. Centerline of the weapon positioned directly under the centerline of the dominant eye;
    2) Horizontal index. The bore of the weapon is level to the ground;
    3) Optical index. The axis of the bore pointing directly where the dominant eye is looking.

    Stage 4: Press-Out
    As the hands come together and a two-hand grip is established in the high retention position the weapon is punched straight to the target. If the weapon has been properly indexed, shots can be fired with accuracy as the weapon punches straight out to full extension. At full extension the weapon is interposed between the dominant eye and the target. If the weapon has been properly indexed the sights should be aligned with little or no movement of the hands, wrists or arms.


    I'm really glad that someone besides me remembers D.R. as that dude innovated quite a bit and never got any traction because of the terrible name for his shooting system.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
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    out of here
    My weak hand grip build position / mechanics are situationally dependent.

    Cover garment, holster position, movement / rotation, striking / standoff / guard….

    With the draw my mind is mainly concerned with my master grip and index of my strong hand so I can adapt fluidly to the situation at hand.

    The weak hand grip build is contextual so I can keep going without delay even if something interrupts the weak hand mid-draw / action I’m mentally still on a path of strong hand only.

    Competition draws are a subset of that.
    Last edited by JCN; 02-28-2022 at 08:34 AM.

  10. #10
    My firing hand thumb is flagged up to create room on the backstrap’s vertical support side edge.

    I put my support side index fingertip on the back of my firing hand middle finger second knuckle.

    I wrap my support hand from front to back finishing up with the thumb “drumstick” pressing into that exposed vertical backstrap edge.

    Grip pressure is mostly support side pinky and ring finger pressing straight back into the frontstrap and “nutcracker” pressure of the drumsticks against each other on the backstrap of the gun.

    Another important thing is even/level pressure upwards into the triggerguard with my support side index finger.

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