The "one" thing to seperate good entangled skills instructors from silly ones

[JohnVee]

I was chatting with a friend about how to know what and who to avoid in terms of combatives training coursework and was asked about what separates good guys in the game. It was on the spot and the first thing that came to mind was if they were using marking cartridges or not.

There are a ton of former combat sports guys coming in the game with some interesting training. I think once the marking cartridges come into the equation though it will redefine much of what they're currently doing.

I say that because it was what happened to me. There were things that worked great with blue guns and inert tools that were terrible when I used nlta.

What do you guys say is the "one" thing?

[fatdog]

the good have highly evolved doctrines for in fight weapon access and weapon retention

[Le Français]

Whether or not their website is shivworks.com.

[rjohnson4405]

If you put on gear and can execute the skills taught while getting attacked by multiple people hitting you at full speed.....

This can be further broken down into, does it keep you OFF the ground? does it work against more than 1 attacker? does it work regardless of size disparity? can you learn the skill in the duration of the class length itself?

Having just come out of a Shivworks EWO class, I can attest it passes this test.

[Tensaw]

Yeah, Southnarc is the obvious easy button here. Hell, he should copyright the term "entangled"...

[FrankinCA]

Check out Immediate Action Combatives . Cecil Burch puts up good content on his site.

[vcdgrips]

Shivworks is like Gunsite-there may have been somebody doing the work before Gunsite, but Gunsite was one of the first places to establish a publically available curriculum and a "way" that works. Perhaps not the 'only" way, but certainly an effective one. As a consequence, many Tier 1 trainers can trace their lineage to Gunsite beginning in the late 70's to mid 80's, often with Vietnam Era military service as well.

Craig Douglas and to a similar extent, other folks in the "collective" to include Cecil Birtch, travel enough, over a large enough area, that going to the "font" is still doable. If that is not the case for a particular prospective student, I would look for someone who has trained with folks from the "collective" and are readily transparent re having do so.

I first became exposed to Craig's Managing Unknown Contacts curriculum at Tac-Con in Tulsa in 09 or 10. His extremely well thought out concepts re "tapes" to play, keeping a "fence" up, movement patterns, and concrete demonstrations re how just a bit more space means much more time to counter/avoid were worth the trip in and of themselves and have stuck with me 12+ years later.

There are a finite number of publicly available trainers who really know what they are doing. Craig Douglas and Cecil Birch (and Tom Givens for that matter) are three of them. Folks would be well advised to train with these men while the opportunities still present themselves.

(Apologies to Craig if my terms are not his terms for the concepts discussed.)

[Totem Polar]

What do you guys say is the "one" thing?

Since this thread has taken the inevitable turn towards the shivworks collective, I’ll say that a good candidate for the “one thing” is decades of concentrated, disciplined, and documented pressure testing of the POI. Right now, nobody has more tenure in that endeavor than the collective under Craig. All those guys do good work though. I think I’ve done maybe 4 Craig classes and, what, 3 of Cecil’s at this point? Those guys are at the top of the game. JMO.

[DT Guy]

The best advice I got in selecting a martial arts instructor was this:

"Don't look for an instructor who moves the way you want to move, and can do the things you want to be able to do.

Look for someone whose STUDENTS move the way you want to move, and can do the things you want to be able to do."



Seems to work here, as well.

Larry

[Mister X]

The best advice I got in selecting a martial arts instructor was this:

"Don't look for an instructor who moves the way you want to move, and can do the things you want to be able to do.

Look for someone whose STUDENTS move the way you want to move, and can do the things you want to be able to do."



Seems to work here, as well.

Larry

That seems reasonable.

I’ve also seen instructors who never demonstrated anything themselves and whose methodologies I found rather questionable, but they had several talented and athletic students who could make pretty much anything work that they put forth as examples of the effectiveness of their training.