This is really long and without pictures. I apologize for that in advance.
I’ve written about issued police pistol selection in the past, but I don’t think it has ever been given its own thread. I figured now is a good time because of a PM conversation with another forum member earlier today and the fact I’m living through it right now at work (again).
If you have ever worked for a government bureaucracy and been part of a procurement process you’ll have a fair idea of how it works and how clunky it can be.
So why do police departments select the pistols they do?
Lineage
I’ll use my own department as an example…
Pre-1950 – Cops supplied their own revolvers and ammo
1950- We need to “professionalize” this department! Let’s issue pistols and all carry S&W M&P’s (pre-Model 10)
1960ish- We need better sights! Let’s issue S&W Combat Masterpieces (pre-Model 15), but if you want to carry a different revolver in 38 Special or 357 Magnum that’s ok too.
1970ish- You know what, 44 Magnum (Dirty Harry came out in 1971) and 45 Colt are cool too (S&W 15 still the issue gun). 1911’s are cool too and so are S&W Model 59’s.
1980- Somebody went to Gunsite. Let’s issue the Colt Series 70 45 ACP 1911.
1985- Ok, we’ve had enough AD’s in the station with these 1911’s. Also the military just switched to that Italian thing. We are going to issue the S&W 659.
1990- Captain Clueless AD’s a 1911 with a pinned grip safety in the men’s locker room bathroom hanging it by the trigger guard on the stall door hook. Emptied a mag into the locker room wall. Captain Clueless is the Chief’s buddy and it can’t be his fault right? Instant Chief knee jerk decision! Every officer from here on out will only carry the department issued S&W 659! No more 1911’s or revolvers allowed!
1995 – We ran out of S&W 659’s. We aren’t going to trade the old ones in, but we’ll buy a bunch of S&W 5906’s to add to inventory (they’re the same as a 659 right?). Lazy non-gun-guy sergeant on the phone: “Oh, you don’t have enough 5906’s for the order, but you do have some extra 5903’s? That sounds close enough. We’ll take both.” Senior guys who had been forced to give up their 1911’s and revolvers five years earlier are forced to carry old 659 boat anchors with crappy sights while newbs are issued lightweight 5903’s with tritium Novak sights causes an uproar (thanks lazy sergeant!).
1996- Tired of all the bitching, admin allows officers to carry personally owned 5906’s, 5903’s, 6906’s and Beretta 92’s because of the similar manual of arms.
1998- H&K USP’s are pretty similar in manual of arms to the S&W and Beretta right? Also North Hollywood so we should have 45 ACP. We’ll approve those. Bam…lots of USP 45’s come in-service. 40 S&W gets added as a caliber choice too.
1999- SIG Sauer’s get added to the list.
1999- One Captain discovers Glocks are neat. Boom, on the list.
2000- SWAT can carry 1911’s because they’re cool and SWAT is high speed.
2001- One sergeant trying to get promoted to Lt makes it his master’s degree project to upgrade all of our guns and somehow decides everyone needs to carry a S&W SW99 in 40 S&W, a gun that nobody wants (he didn’t even carry it).
2003- None of the SW99’s work quite right and by the end of the year there are only 3 officers out of 170 actually carrying them on duty. Academy recruits are actually given personal loans by other officers to buy a decent gun since no one considers them safe.
2004- Springfield XD’s are cool. Add those to the list.
2006- All of the original SW99’s go back to S&W and everyone is issued a new SW99. Nothing really changed. They’re still junk.
2007- S&W asks to take all our SW99’s back and replace them with new M&P 40’s. They also offer to pay for new duty gear. Basically, they want us to forget the SW99 ever existed. The new M&P 40 is issued which most like. After the transition not a single officer in the department is carrying a 9mm anymore.
2007- Guys coming off SWAT don’t want to give up their 1911’s. Bitching and moaning ensues. A “single action transition course” is created and suddenly 60% of the department is carrying a 45 ACP 1911 paid for with their own money (Kimber hell begins for me).
2012-Yours truly goes against the grain and is the first guy to carry a 9mm (Glock 17) in years. After years of trying, ToddG had convinced me, “This is the way.”
2016- FBI announces they’re switching to 9mm. A Captain decides we need to switch to a 9mm department issue gun. S&W has let it be known the M&P 2.0 is about to drop. Here is a conversation that actually happened:
Me: “Sir, we should wait a month and order the 2.0 9mm.”
Capt: “Does it take the same holster we use now?”
Me: “I’m not sure. Probably.”
Capt: “I don’t want to buy new holsters. Just order the one available now.”
2018- We purchase all new Safariland 6360 holsters and Surefire X300’s for everyone (if we’d only waited a month for those M&P 2.0’s).
2021- There are now only three officers carrying 40 S&W left in the department. No Berettas. One XD. Two H&K’s (a USP 45 and a VP9). Just a handful of 1911’s. It’s pretty much 40% Glock, 30% M&P, 20% P320 and Staccato P’s.
2022- The Chief goes and shoots a gun with an PMO with his buddy at another department on Saturday. On Monday, he tasks me with selecting a new gun, optic, and holster to issue everyone…and here we are.
Most departments have a similar pistol lineage made up of fads, poor choices and knee jerk decisions with a dash of common sense thrown in now and then.
Another local department decided in the late 1990’s that every officer would carry a SIG P220. That was fine when it was mostly large males, but then they started hiring little females (and little males) and some could not shoot the P220 worth a darn. The answer? Why issue them P245’s because those are smaller and damnit, we need magazine compatibility in case we’re tossing mags back and forth in a gunfight! Like that has every happened in an LE environment.
The Polar Opposites and the Happy Medium
When it comes to police pistol selection there are typically two very strong opinions, the middle ground, and then everyone else.
In Corner #1:
“Tactical Timmys” who are not armorers (and usually not firearms instructors) pushing for issuing the latest-greatest whatever that he thinks is the best. “I’d like a CZ Shadow 2 or a Glock 45 with a comp and custom-milled slide. No, wait…do Staccato XC’s for everyone! Dude, stock guns suck.”
In Corner #2:
“Captain Cautious” believes we should mandate only one gun for the entire department. It should be the plainest and safest gun possible to avoid all public scrutiny and potential liability.
The Middle Ground:
I would like a gun that has good factory support, everyone makes a holster for, is adaptable to as many hand sizes as possible, is very shootable, and that is easy for armorers and the end user to take care of.
Everyone Else:
Hey gun…who cares.
Compatibility
It matters what everyone else around you carries.
Police recruits go to academies with other agencies to get general firearms training. Right now locally the Glock, M&P, increasingly the P320 and the old SIG P226 rule. That’s what everyone in local academies carry. Throwing in a weird gun doesn’t do the firearms instruction cadre or the recruit any favors.
Send your officers to a regional training center for in-service that involves a FATS or Virtra simulator? Likely you’ll find a Glock, SIG or S&W simulator gun there.
SWAT officers go to SWAT schools. Lots of time they involve force-on-force and have loaner SIMS, UTM or red-guns guns available. Guess what guns they tend to have sitting around?
Need a part quick? Can I call a guy a couple cities over to bum it off them?
There are plenty of other examples, but generally what you find is that Glock, M&P and increasingly P320’s are what are around.
Can I Get a Holster or Support Gear?
During the 1990’s it was all about the Safariland SSIII (070). Sure, there were holsters offered by Bianchi, Uncle Mike’s, Ted Blocker and a few others, but it was all about the SSIII.
By the early 2000’s the Safariland SLS was a thing and there were smaller pistol mounted lights coming out, but the SSIII still dominated. Two things happened around 2006/2007. Surefire dropped the X200 and Streamlight dropped the TLR both of which made pistol lights practical and then Safariland released the ALS holster which held the light on the gun in the holster securely. Match made in heaven.
By mid-2010’s, the Safariland ALS was pretty much the only holster anyone in LE wanted. Then Safariland moved production to Mexico and some other stuff happened and they are finally seeing competition from Blackhawk, US Duty Gear and Alien Gear.
Take a look at Safariland, US Duty Gear, Blackhawk and Alien. They all make holsters for…wait for it…Glock, S&W M&P, and SIG P320.
With the exception of Alien, they also all make duty holsters for the Staccato P, but that’s a different class of gun in my opinion.
Want to carry a H&K VP9 OR? Good luck.
Beretta APX with optic? Not a chance.
CZ P10 with optic? Same deal.
Glock, S&W and SIG.
Do your guys do force-on-force with SIMS or UTM?
Glock, S&W and SIG.
Factory Support
If you’re an LE armorer, you get to know your LE factory rep the same way you know your dentist. They may call or send you a reminder about something now and then, which is both helpful and annoying. Every time you see them they tend to give you a goody-bag. You usually don’t call them until you need them, but when you do you want all their attention and you want it right now. Once they help you, you don’t need them anymore for awhile, but the experience leaves a certain taste in your mouth…hopefully it’s a good one.
Glock has always done a great job locally when it comes to their factory reps. It’s only been two guys in the past twenty years (which says something). Call him if you have an issue and he shows up. He’ll send you parts usually for free. He’ll help get your folks in classes (he doesn’t teach them, but he’s always around). He’ll grease the way to send guns back to the factory. All great things. During the Gen3 G22 fiasco I got annoyed with him, but he made up for it with other helpful things over time. He’s a true gun-guy who used to get excited by the 1911 I was carrying and want to talk about his safe full of 1911’s at home. Dealing with the Glock factory itself I’d give them an A-. Sometimes they’re super helpful, sometimes not quite as much which means I have to bug the rep to help me.
S&W is just as good, if not better, than Glock. Our rep here in Northern California was Dave Bowler, a true gun-guy, who was just promoted to head of LE sales. Beyond a great dude. I honestly think he knows more about the M&P and understands it more than most of S&W’s engineers. He teaches their armorer’s courses and is an all-around fantastic human being. His local replacement has only been there for a matter of months, but so far I’m impressed. The S&W factory is awesome. Call them, they e-mail you a shipping tag, you send the gun, and they send it back fixed in a couple weeks for free. They get an A+.
SIG had a great rep locally in the late 1990’s to mid-2000’s, but then we went through a revolving door of guys. The latest (who got it just weeks ago) is a just-retired SEAL. He’s very excited and responsive so we’ll see how it goes. Time will tell. Their head LE manager is also a retired SEAL so I have a feeling we’re going to see a trend. Their armorer’s courses are always taught by their SIG Academy guys separate from sales. It’s rare a sales guy shows up (that needs to change). The SIG factory went through a rough patch from 2008-2015 or so, but recently has been very responsive. I haven’t had to send much back to them, but the few times I have they’ve been quick. The current factory if you forced me to rate it I’d give an A- similar to Glock.
I recently dealt with FN’s rep. A very nice man and responsive, it’s pretty obvious he’s not a gun guy. He taught the armorer’s class, but wasn’t anywhere on the same level as Dave Bowler.
I won’t waste the time talking about H&K, Beretta, CZ or anyone else. It isn’t worth the time. They don’t seem interested in being players in my market. Maybe they’re better elsewhere in the country, but based on sales figures, I doubt it.
The factory rep world is pretty small and sometimes these guys go from company to company (Hey, didn’t you work for ___ before?). It’s a small world and the good ones don’t talk trash about the competition.
The sales side is usually handled by a regional distributor, typically an LE sales place. Companies like Glock make their distributors only carry their gun. Some of these guys are more willing to trash another company’s product. Take it with a grain of salt. They’re sales guys just like the folks at a dealership that want to sell you a car.
Sometimes there are very real problems.
The S&W SW99 was a piece of garbage. It never should have been made, S&W never should have sold it, and my department never should have bought it.
Ultimately, S&W admitted their mistake by replacing everything for free and tried to make the SW99 disappear from history.
The Gen3 Glock 22’s were beyond problematic. It’s a much longer story, but essentially once a metal WML was put on the gun it overworked the RSA and the gun no longer functioned reliably. Glock didn’t want to admit there was a problem and the claimed officers were “limpwristing” the gun. There was a lot of back and forth and they kept trying to come up with work-arounds (a new RSA, new mag springs, etc.). Nothing really worked besides taking the light off the gun and freshening up all the springs. The Gen4 G22 was supposed to correct it, but didn’t fully do that either. For LE the lesson was clear, 40 S&W + Glock = No good. Yet Glock sold millions of them.
Note: I’ve seen folks bring up bodyworn camera footage of officer involved shootings where officer’s guns malfunction. “See that! That gun isn’t reliable!” A lethal force encounter where a human being is shooting at, and being at shot at by, another human being is like no other experience. The human body experiences a rapid physiological change that no training scenario can produce. This typically causes the officer to induce malfunctions on his or her gun. It isn’t the gun’s fault and is very common. It has always been very common, but now that BWC is prevalent and being released to the public more, it is more visible. While it sounds counterintuitive, don’t judge the reliability of a gun based upon a malfunction seen in BWC.
So how does it work?
One of three things typically happen (there are other things that can as well depending on jurisdiction), but these are pretty common:
1) You have a gun you like with a company you like and you seek an upgrade. This is typically super easy. Call the factory rep and tell him you want to upgrade and ask for a quote. Usually they’ll give you a factory quote that is too expensive and then they’ll prompt a distributor to give you a better one and then maybe another police supply place so you armed with three quotes (hey, a bidding process just happened, neat). You get whatever finance approval you need to get things going and get a purchase order cut, you get your new guns, you transition your new guns to your officers (typically and hopefully at a range day to let them shoot it and work the kinks out and qualify), you send in the old guns (with an option for individual officer purchase if you are wise), and then you’re done. Easy peasy.
2) You don’t care for your current gun or you want to keep options open and are just curious. You can do a RFP (Request For Proposal) process inviting manufacturers to come to you. If you’re big enough and going to spend enough money, you spec what you want and companies compete for your business. You do whatever evaluation and get it down to three options that are acceptable and then you let the three bid. The low bid typically wins (typically, there are ways around it).
3) You don’t care for your current gun or you want to keep options open and are just curious. You evaluate different guns on the down-low and pick the one you want. You find a sole-source justification to purchase the one you want. You get whatever finance approval you need to get things going and get a purchase order cut, you get your new guns, you transition your new guns to your officers (typically and hopefully at a range day to let them shoot it and work the kinks out and qualify), you send in the old guns (with an option for individual officer purchase if you are wise), and then you’re done.
Fun Fact: There is much ado being made about the FN 509 being selected by LAPD. They essentially used the process described in #2. FN is selling the guns to LAPD for well under $200 per gun (you can look up and see what a 509 usually costs). FN is relying on notoriety of that contract getting them more contracts and selling more guns for them. I don’t blame them and the 509 isn’t a horrible gun.
But as a normal consumer, should you buy an FN 509 because LAPD did?
…I know some people will do just that (paying full retail of course).
So why do departments switch platforms?
Here are some common reasons:
- Just wanted something new and different- You drove a Ford for five years and you want to try a Toyota just because - You would be shocked how common this is.
- Lack of confidence in the product - Think FNS and Arizona DPS
- Bad taste left by a sales rep/factory – Heck that guy
- You get a new Chief from a different department and he prefers a particular gun
- Some Lt needs a project for a master’s degree – Seen that one
- The Capt that picked the current gun just retired and we hated him so let’s pick something else just to spite him (like he cares since he’s retired) – Seen that one locally
- Our firearms program sucks and we don’t qual enough and we think this new whiz-bang gun will magically make all of our officers that shoot 50 rounds one time a year become dead eye shots rather than fix our suck program.
- The guys that were in charge of the firearms program for the past fifteen years were all one year away from retirement each time they were picked. Our guns have been totally neglected and never upgraded. A new guy is put in charge and suddenly it’s the guns fault – Seen that multiple times locally as well.
- The Glock guy that has carried a Glock forever is finally in charge of the program so he can dump the gun that everyone else likes and pick his favorite Glock and force everyone else to carry it.
- This one officer’s gun this one time broke (never mind his striker channel was packed full of lube because he thought the weep hole on the bottom of the slide was where you squirt lube)…and he told this other officer…who told this other officer…who told this other officer. Now there is no confidence and we need a new gun. The police officer union demands the department do something! -Seen it happen.
- Our guns are worn out and we need something new. What’s cheapest?
Do these seem like valid reasons that should influence what gun you as a consumer purchase or form an opinion about a gun?
What about you Kev?
I’m looking right now essentially at three options for my department and conducting a T&E process.
Option 1: Glock 45 factory milled for an Acro P-2
Option 2: S&W M&P 2.0 factory milled for an Acro P-2
Option 3: SIG P320 Carry with Romeo2
Here’s the logic on the optic:
- My city balked at purchasing UAV’s made in China so I doubt Holosun is a good option.
- I don’t want to deal with changing RMR batteries in 180 guns and the SRO isn’t general issue cop-proof. The Delta Point Pro sucks and the EOTech isn’t even available yet.
- I want something cop proof. Most of our people won’t take care for an open emitter PMO so closed emitter seems like a good option.
I really love the support S&W has given us over the years, but all three options are really good. It will probably come down to price and trade-in value.
Ultimately, if you don’t like what I pick continue carrying your own gun or go buy what you want!
The Lesson
Don’t get caught up in “this police department carries this” or “this department dumped this gun.” I commonly hear, “I talked to this one cop and he said…”
Look at overall trends. If most departments carry a Glock, SIG or S&W it’s for a reason, but ultimately evaluate what you need and what will work best for you.
Don’t bash a platform because your local PD dumped it. Who know? Maybe a Lt just needed a master’s degree project.
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Originally Posted by Lon
