Can confirm.Originally Posted by Sammy1
Can confirm.
Anything I post is my opinion alone as a private citizen.
My job has been personally owed since 1837. They came up with and approved brand and caliber list in the 80s, and it has expanded and contracted over the years but is still pretty extensive.
As far as OIS’s, Our procedure is to send a firearms examiner to the scene of an OIS to collect the weapon. The examiner then immediately does all required processing at the lab while the officer is debriefed by his FOP lawyer, does their video walkthrough with IA and goes to homicide for a written formal statement. Generally, the weapon is completed with processing and returned by the time the statement is done (6-7 hours). The officer is then sent home with his gun. Examiners really like being woken up at 3am on Sunday to come to a scene, but they understand.
The reasons for this process are mainly around reinforcing to a justified shooter that they didn’t do anything wrong and the agency is not preparing to throw them under the bus. We also assign a very senior acquaintance of the officer to walk though the IAD process with them to make sure they have coffee, someone calls the wife, etc and sits with them.
In cases where charges are expected, it is not returned. In some bizarre cases, such as damage to the weapon rendering it inoperable, or the suspect’s fingerprint on the weapon, a replacement is found. Hospitalized personnel are not given the weapon back until they are discharged from the hospital.
I’ve been involved in purchasing weapons for my agency. It all comes down to what the person in the corner office wants…and the power of suggestion at the right time.
We switched from Hk USP 45 to M&P 45 midsize. Great duty guns but the magazine springs were problematic. Smith finally got their shit together and we had no further issues. We were looking at Smiths and Glock but it came down to money…and Smith was cheaper.
Que new chief… he wants to retire with a Glock 19 and the M&P45s were 5 years old…still running strong. He couldn’t hit the side of a barn at 5 yards and, of course, blames the M&P…no matter that he’s a 🐈. Other firearms instructor tells him he may shoot better with a Glock 17 or 19 the day he qualifies (all about timing) and poof…new pistols. Most worthless chief I’ve ever had the displeasure to work with…he wasn’t much of a cop either…(I know, some of you are surprised…). However, I didn’t mind the change to the Gen 4 17’s so…
These pistols just passed the 5 year mark in service life and we…(well I’m retired…but still reserve)…so, they just replaced the RSA, trigger spring, and other items that “need to be replaced” per Glock recommendations on all pistols. No issues what so ever…they’re boringly reliable Glocks. If they switch it’ll be for Glock 45s with MOS configuration.
I always looked at aftermarket support and what holsters, etc were readily available. It is usually Glock and Safariland. I don’t think anyone can beat that combo and agencies can usually get a lower price for both when purchased by the same vendor, here in NC it would be Craigs Firearms (Glock) or Lawmens (Sig or S&W).
In reference to OIS’s, here the SBI usually places the gun in evidence in the jurisdiction where it happened. It’ll get sent to the lab and they’ll do whatever. It doesn’t take all that long to do what they need to do but there is usually a backlog, as has been mentioned. Most agencies here give the officers their gun back when they can. Although there are a few larger agencies here that will NOT let the officer have/buy the gun they used in the shooting.
My G21 stayed in evidence for 2.5 years because the dude I shot family attorney had a judge sign an order prohibiting destruction or reissuing of any evidence for two years. During that 2.5 years the agency switched to a G21SF and traded the Gen 2’s…all but mine…because it was in evidence. The agency head approached my wife and asked her if she wanted to buy it…and she jumped at the opportunity. It now sits in my safe.
I have never worked for an agency that let officers carry a POW pistol on duty…and I think that’s the way to go. It just seems there is less liability for the agency and the officer. Because, you know officers would never try to alter a gun because they saw a guy on YouTube do a $.25 trigger job and it made the trigger so much better…. There is a reason we inspect guns every year….
Agreed about that guy or girl in the corner office. My former chief absolutely hates Glock for some reason. I suspect this stems from coming from an age when ships were wood and men were iron (as were guns sort of). This wasn't an issue in the late eighties because we wanted SIG 226 pistols.
As time went on, the department and instructor opinions changed. As we leaned toward polymer striker-fired pistols, he still hated Glock. I suspect that why we ended up with the FNS-9. We could have saved several years of problems if we'd gone Glock in the first place.
This is a wonderful discussion.
Recently did a test and assessment process for new pistols.
We stayed with handguns that were in common use without any major issues, just to reduce our testing and ammunition costs.
We tested Glock 19 and Glock 45. M&P. Sig P229. And Beretta APX.
Gathered 12 people from across the agency. Good shooters, strugglers, animals, munchkins, lefties, etc. About even make and female.
They shot three courses of fire with each gun, about 100 rounds per pistol.
Then they rated them on 19 different criteria. Grip, sights, first shot, follow up shots, malfunction clearing, etc.
The Glocks came in first and second. Which was kind of a surprise as we’ve had DA/SA metal guns since 1989.
We did not test a 320 as the gun they sent us ceased working in the first 100 rounds.
The APX centurion failed in the first 250 rounds.
It was pouring rain and 48 degrees. A thirteen hour day. General all around suck fest.
The process was done that way to avoid the idea that command staff or firearms unit staff influenced the decision in any way. Although we kind of did by picking which guns were tested, the shooters had the final say. We limited the guns being tested to what was in common wide scale use with no issues, and had holster and accessories available. The guns we tested all met that criteria.
Don't worry. Someone will still bitch (likely behind your back) and say you made a non-objective decision and that it was based on cost.
Or even better.....someone makes an anonymous complaint to IA that you are getting kickbacks from a manufacturer in the form of cash and free guns.
Our POA had said early on that the end users should have input into this process, and I agreed. We had about 75 cops shoot the guns on a short course of fire, scored them, and then also asked for feedback on multiple points (trigger, sights, modularity, adaptability, etc.). My personal favorite came in #2, but as I told the staff at the beginning of the process when some lazy fuckers encouraged me to "just puck one".....I'm not picking a gun for ME. I'm not even a huge fan of the whole "one gun to rule them all" model. You can get much closer to the "one size fits all" thing with modern polymer, modular pistol designs.....but I don't really care. I like Glocks. I like M&Ps (a lot). I like 320s. They all work. But I only get to make big decisions until someone with no knowledge but lots of brass decides I'm wrong. So one gun it is. And frankly, the one was preferred by almost 90% of our shooters. And they also shot it slightly better on our scored course.
But I'm still wrong, I know.
The great unwashed masses should certainly have input into the selection of new weapons. If someone has confidence in their pistol, he or she is likely to perform better with it. The county police, along with the sheriff's office and fire marshals, went to DAO Beretta Centurions and Brigadiers shortly after my former department and a neighboring city selected DA/SA SIG 226's. Whatever the "better" or "right" choice, I suspect county instructors had to devote time to explaining the reasoning of DAO to their troops when the time would be better spent training..
On the other hand, I wouldn't decide based strictly on popular vote which may be influenced by gun magazines, YouTube videos, or what someone's buddy's agency carries.If I were involved in a weapon selection process again, I'd look at qualification scores with instructor oversight to see if problems with weapons manipulation occurs. If problems occur, it's time to decide if it's a poorly designed weapon or a training issue that can be rectified in transition and sustainment training.
I would also endeavor to winnow out guns to a manageable two or three semi-finalists.As I recall, my former agency votes from a selection of three flavors of SIG, two M&P's, two Glocks, and one FN. Of course, I would have tested the guns in the right caliber and with the mandated WML's attached.
The agency I spent most of my career with was created in 1970.
They started out with S&W 10 revolvers.
Sometime around 1980 they switched to the S&W 66 revolver, loaded with .38 Special 158 grn LSWC hollow points.
The switch to the auto pistol began in my area in late 1987. The Agency then switched to Sig 226s in 9mm loaded with Winchester Silvertips.
I started there in late 1989.
In 1990 we hired a couple of females with small hands. We bought Sig 225s to accommodate them, and then bought a few more the next years for detectives and admin staff.
In 2004 we traded those guns off for Sig 226-DAK in .40 cal. The agency did NOT buy any Sig 239-DAKs to accommodate shooters with small hands, and that was a problem. Ammo was the 165 grn Winchester Ranger HP.
In 2013 we got on the State Patrol bid and bought Gen IV Glock 22s in .40 cal. They bought Glock 27s for detectives and admin staff (I thought we should have purchased G23s for those people). Many who selected the G27 turned them in after shooting them because the gun was too small. I enjoyed saying “I told you so.” The only debate about the Glocks was whether or not to require the New York trigger spring, and fortunately, they did not.
In 2018 they issued new Safariland ALS holsters and TLR-1 weapon mounted lights. Nobody had a problem with malfunctions with the WMLs on.
In 2020 they allowed any Glock 17/22/45 as a personal purchase, and authorized red dot sights as well. With the ammo supply getting tight, they didn’t conduct a transition class for those with RDS but the only people to switch were “gun guys” and they didn’t have a problem becoming proficient. If you were carting a personal gun that wouldn’t fit in a G22 holster, you had to buy your own. I think all of the people running RDS used MOS guns.
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