Issued Police Pistol Selection

[SW CQB 45]

For those that are in charge of picking department weapons. Any thoughts on issuing everyone an optic ready gun and having an approved optic list for the officer to purchase at their expense (with an armorer installingit)? My department issued gun, optic, light, and holster but the process took about 2 years before the first rds gun hit the street

If I am still around (32 yrs).... I plan on recommending this.

In years past, Admin would only approve the purchase of 30 +/- Glocks a budget year.

It took 5 years and I cant recall what year Gen 5 came to but officers who were issued Gen 4s the previous years wanted to trade for Gen 5s (hA!)

We try to replace our Glocks every 10 years (with a trade in program).

I think 2025-26 will be the first batch to hit the 10 year mark.

[H8Train]

I started at current department in early 2013. Standard issue at the time was 3rd Gen Glock 22. Mine was over decade old with dead night sights. Still shot great, even with a surefire X300 no matter what ammo was shot through it. Issued ammo was 165gr federal hydrashok. FWIW we actually had pretty good results with our OIS with the antiquated hydra-shoks.

In 2017 some admin officer had a desk pop. Official story was someone was walking around the cubical farm and banged the gun/holster against a cubical wall which resulted in a "accidental discharge". Dept said a inspection of multiple issued handguns revealed multiple broken rear frame rails. I don't buy that as I don't see how it would be possible for a broken rear frame rail to cause that, pretty sure someone just cranked off a round finger fucking a gun and now the captain incharge of firearms was using this to get new guns. But Im just a foot soilder and don't get paid to think.

Since the FBI was going to 9MM at the time we switched to gen 4 9mm Glocks. Either G19 or G17 based off officer preference. New duty ammo is Speer Gold Dot G2 147gr. Last few OIS have had good results. And some gear queer admin was incharge of procurement and he happened to love truglo TFX pro sights. So now the issued handgun had those sights. But lets ignore how those sights shoot high for literally pretty much every one. But recently the dept has re-written policy to allow Glock factory nightsights but only at the officers cost.



But to fully paint the picture let me tell you about our fuddish policies. First, our issued Glocks have the NY1 trigger return spring "its how we have always done it". The 3rd Gen G22's were adopted in the very early 2000's after the standard issued was Berreta 96D's, and prior to that Berreta 92D, and prior to that Ruger police service six's (also DAO).

We also don't top off magazines. Cause we don't want to over-stress the magazine spring. So in our holstered guns, 16rds in the mag and one in the chamber. If you top off the magazine you will be written up. Nevermind the manufacturer and hundreds of thousands of other cops carry 17+1 with zero issues.



Offduty guns include Glocks in 9mm/40/45 with NY1 triggers, various sigs in 9/40 with DAO triggers, S&W 3rd gens with DAO triggers in 9/40, and Kahr K9.

[jnc36rcpd]

An allied agency had a desk pop with a Glock 22 or 23 which was also attributed to wear inside the firearm. Detailed weapon maintenance and inspection were not hallmarks of the agency firearms program at the time.

This is not to say your unintentional discharge was not negligent , but I don't believe the local one was. Like your agency, the local department went to 9mm Glock. Also, oddly enough, they previously carried 9mm Beretta pistols (never stopped at .40 with them) and also don't top off.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I started at current department in early 2013. Standard issue at the time was 3rd Gen Glock 22. Mine was over decade old with dead night sights.

In 2017 some admin officer had a desk pop. Official story was someone was walking around the cubical farm and banged the gun/holster against a cubical wall which resulted in a "accidental discharge". Dept said a inspection of multiple issued handguns revealed multiple broken rear frame rails. I don't buy that as I don't see how it would be possible for a broken rear frame rail to cause that, pretty sure someone just cranked off a round finger fucking a gun and now the captain in charge of firearms was using this to get new guns. But Im just a foot soilder and don't get paid to think.

I left an agency in 2014, who's G22's were the same vintage. One had the rear frame rails break on the range a few years before, and three others were in the affected S/N range. One of them was my issued weapon. I was the department armorer. I can kinda see how a discharge might be possible under certain conditions.

But to fully paint the picture let me tell you about our fuddish policies. First, our issued Glocks have the NY1 trigger return spring "its how we have always done it". The 3rd Gen G22's were adopted in the very early 2000's after the standard issued was Berreta 96D's, and prior to that Berreta 92D, and prior to that Ruger police service six's (also DAO).

Offduty guns include Glocks in 9mm/40/45 with NY1 triggers, various sigs in 9/40 with DAO triggers, S&W 3rd gens with DAO triggers in 9/40, and Kahr K9.

Some folks are here would be cool with that. I'd want the NY1 spring coupled with the "-" connector, though.

[Gadfly]

I left an agency in 2014, who's G22's were the same vintage. One had the rear frame rails break on the range a few years before, and three others were in the affected S/N range. One of them was my issued weapon. I was the department armorer. I can kinda see how a discharge might be possible under certain conditions.
.

I get the concept… the rear rail is cracked off, and allows the slide to life up from the frame, which in theory can allow the cruciform to slip off the striker and allow it to go forward. But… the striker should still only be at half tension, not full tension, since the trigger has not been pulled to the rear, and the firing pin block would still be engaged as well. So even with the rear rail snapped off, I am not envisioning a discharge.

Side note, I recall in armorer school where they explained one rail always cracks off first, because the rifling in the barrel causes twist (obviously), but that torques the barrel hard while causing the spin. And that barrel and slide are locked together which means you always get more tension put on one rail than the other. I believe it was the left rear rail that was notorious for cracking first if memory serves (it has been a long time), and it was always a .40 problem, and was extremely rare in 9mm.

(Note; I edited for grammar and context)

[Chuck Whitlock]

I get the concept… the rear rail is cracked off, and allows the slide to life up from the frame, which in theory can allow the cruciform to slip off the striker and allow it to go forward. But… the striker should still only be at half tension, not full tension, since the trigger has not been pulled to the rear, and the firing pin block would still be engaged as well. So even with the rear rail snapped off, I am not envisioning a discharge.

Good point about the striker block. I recall testing done a while back by one or more P-Fers that showed a half-tensioned striker setting off a primer about 1/2 the time, but the striker block was bypassed.

Side note, I recall in armorer school where they explained one rail always cracks off first, because the rifling in the barrel causes twist (obviously), but that torques the barrel hard while cause if the spin. And that barrel and slide are locked together which means you always get more tension put on one rail than the other. I believe it was the left rear rail that was notorious for cracking if memory serves (it has been a long time), and it was always a .40 problem, and was extremely rare in 9mm.

Dude in question's gun turned into a single shot about 3 rounds into qualification. Upon visual inspection, both rails were gone. Significantly, dude had just gotten back from CITP in Glynco. He was lucky it didn't go TU there.

[HCM]

I started at current department in early 2013. Standard issue at the time was 3rd Gen Glock 22. Mine was over decade old with dead night sights. Still shot great, even with a surefire X300 no matter what ammo was shot through it. Issued ammo was 165gr federal hydrashok. FWIW we actually had pretty good results with our OIS with the antiquated hydra-shoks.

In 2017 some admin officer had a desk pop. Official story was someone was walking around the cubical farm and banged the gun/holster against a cubical wall which resulted in a "accidental discharge". Dept said a inspection of multiple issued handguns revealed multiple broken rear frame rails. I don't buy that as I don't see how it would be possible for a broken rear frame rail to cause that, pretty sure someone just cranked off a round finger fucking a gun and now the captain incharge of firearms was using this to get new guns. But Im just a foot soilder and don't get paid to think.

Since the FBI was going to 9MM at the time we switched to gen 4 9mm Glocks. Either G19 or G17 based off officer preference. New duty ammo is Speer Gold Dot G2 147gr. Last few OIS have had good results. And some gear queer admin was incharge of procurement and he happened to love truglo TFX pro sights. So now the issued handgun had those sights. But lets ignore how those sights shoot high for literally pretty much every one. But recently the dept has re-written policy to allow Glock factory nightsights but only at the officers cost.



But to fully paint the picture let me tell you about our fuddish policies. First, our issued Glocks have the NY1 trigger return spring "its how we have always done it". The 3rd Gen G22's were adopted in the very early 2000's after the standard issued was Berreta 96D's, and prior to that Berreta 92D, and prior to that Ruger police service six's (also DAO).

We also don't top off magazines. Cause we don't want to over-stress the magazine spring. So in our holstered guns, 16rds in the mag and one in the chamber. If you top off the magazine you will be written up. Nevermind the manufacturer and hundreds of thousands of other cops carry 17+1 with zero issues.



Offduty guns include Glocks in 9mm/40/45 with NY1 triggers, various sigs in 9/40 with DAO triggers, S&W 3rd gens with DAO triggers in 9/40, and Kahr K9.

Like @Gadfly, I’m skeptical of a broken frame Rail causing a true AD in a Glock but it sounds like the desk pop guy did y’all a favor getting rid of the Gen 3 G22s.

[KevH]

@Gadfly @HCM @jnc36rcpd @H8Train @Chuck Whitlock

The guns with broken frame rails were commonly "E" series guns (from the early 2000's) and Glock did a recall on them within a year or two of them being released (I still have my post-recall Gen3 G22 with a "1E" serial number).

The frame rail breaking off alone cannot cause the gun to discharge. The striker safety prevents that. I've seen a few "E" series guns with the broken frame rail. All of them continued to function just fine with the exception of a Glock 21 that kept having a dead trigger caused by the back of the cruciform slipping from the striker as the slide flexed just enough on the frame.

The stars (in reality the parts) would have to really align perfectly to allow it to happen where:

The slide needs to be able to wiggle just enough forward for the tab on the trigger bar to depress the striker safety plunger while the striker is released
...while...
The gun remains in battery with the disconnector not engaged
...while...
The striker is cocked far enough back and released to allow it to have enough force to pop a primer.

Even with a broken frame rail, if all other parts of the gun are working correctly the an un-commanded discharge cannot occur.

I suppose a foreign object could hypothetically enter between the slide and frame and depress the striker safety plunger although that is highly unlikely.

What's more likely is that an officer/agent AD'ed and the gun already happened to have a broken frame rail so they just blamed the gun rather than place blame on human error.

[H8Train]

@Gadfly @HCM @jnc36rcpd @H8Train @Chuck Whitlock


What's more likely is that an officer/agent AD'ed and the gun already happened to have a broken frame rail so they just blamed the gun rather than place blame on human error.

Yeah I'm betting on that was what happened with just the general politics of our dept.

Like @Gadfly, I’m skeptical of a broken frame Rail causing a true AD in a Glock but it sounds like the desk pop guy did y’all a favor getting rid of the Gen 3 G22s.

I had asked range staff months prior to the incident when we would be getting new guns and was told it wasn't on their radar, so had it not happened I wouldn't be surprised if we still had them. FWIW though mine shot really well and they were pretty loose with ammo back then so I shot it a good bit. Only part failure I ever had was 1 slide stop.

[gtmtnbiker98]

For those that are in charge of picking department weapons. Any thoughts on issuing everyone an optic ready gun and having an approved optic list for the officer to purchase at their expense (with an armorer installingit)? My department issued gun, optic, light, and holster but the process took about 2 years before the first rds gun hit the street

I did this very thing, just completed our roll out of Glock 45 MOS pistols. I provide the gun, Holosun 509T, CHPWS plate, low witness BUIS, and TLR7-A. Our process took me five minutes to issue a Purchase Order. Once we had all of the equipment (6 weeks after order placed) we rolled them out in a week, providing 4-6 hrs range training and familiarity. My people love them!

But, I’m a “gun guy” aware of industry trends and I’m the decision maker. Also, my folks shoot on average 200+ pistol rounds and 60 rifle rounds per month, all structured. We are a smaller department, with 20 FT officers.