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Thread: Beginning to teach, semi-formally.

  1. #31
    Just my $.02 from the LEO and ,mil perspective:

    First of all, because it is on my mind - waivers: you need one and, yes, they aren't worth much of anything if you get sued. I used to sky-dive and those waivers all had, in some shape or form "you can die pretty easy doing this" as their main focus - lofts still got sued.

    If you are going to administer waivers, and you should, one of the things you want to do is combat the 'everybody has waivers, no one reads them, they just sign on the line.' One way to do that is to have a waiver which has acknowledgements throughout the body of the waiver. Ken Murray introduced me to this idea in his instructor course, and when I went back to work, the legal eagles agreed. When I retired I shamelessly took it with me (this is just a portion):

    Name:  Waiver Snip.jpg
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    Another way to combat the 'nobody reads waivers' offense is to have the members of the class read it aloud. I used round-robin reading with the TASER waiver, any TASER instructors know how long and mind numbing it is.

    Both these techniques take time, but they do show that you made a serious attempt to warn folks of the hazards of instruction. While the waiver won't keep you from being sued, it combined with safety rules which are rigorously adhered to, MAY reduce the hurt if you are sued.

    Range Rules/Safety rules basically the same format as above. You keep the one they checked off/initialed/circled/signed on and give them a copy of what they signed, plus a clean text copy.

    You need to project a feeling of concern for the safety of the students as you have them complete these documents. In addition to covering your ass, that approach is more likely to have the rules stick with them for your class and into the future. Be sure to build the time needed to fully discuss the waiver and safety rules into the class.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Iron-sighted pistol to teach students
    I don't know about this. It's a lot easier to explain what's going on with a pistol while it's recoiling with a RDS, and where it needs to be to fire again. A lot of people give up and stick it in the sock drawer because they can't figure out iron sights on pistols. I think we're at the point tech wise where the added complexity and reliability issues of RDS are no longer outweighing the difficulty beginners have shooting pistols.

    If a basic Sig Romeo dot fails (and they do, quite often) I don't know that a beginner is going to be worse off indexing out the window than they would be with irons. IME people that take an interest upgrade fairly quickly and people that don't are no worse off, and being able to make good hits easier helps with taking an interest.
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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Not sure if this is the correct sub-form, please move if not.

    Like most of us, I've known way too many "NRA Certified" old fudd idiots propagating bad info from hardware to techniques to bad legal advice. I have several people in my family and friend groups who have asked me over the years if I could teach them to shoot. Usually, it's not that they want to become a competitive shooter or even an "active self-defense practitioner." They're not looking for a new hobby, but they realize that either no gun, or a gun they've had in a sock drawer for the last 10 years might not be the best thing and that maybe it would be best to get some basic instruction.

    I am happy to help provide said instruction. I enjoy helping people and enjoy teaching. I do not have a military or law enforcement background. I do have fairly significant experience with firearms from working at one of the largest and busiest Metro Atlanta area gun shops + indoor ranges for 15 years, coupled with several armorer certifications, in addition to professional training I've attended, and finally being close friends and regularly shooting with some pretty legit dudes in the industry who either are or were Mil and/or LEO instructors, SF, AMU, and other high-level shooters.

    Feedback from the informal "hey, come to the range with me and I'll show you a few things" has been great. To date, I have been paid for 1 formal class where a close friend's uncles and cousins wanted me to come to their family farm where they recreationally shoot and put on a formal class. It was pretty much a basic safe handling and marksmanship class, but again, the feedback was overwhelmingly positive.

    I'm sure some of you here do similar things, maybe not to the level of someone like @Mr_White, but what steps might I take to make this more of a "thing?"

    On another, more logistical note, I've got a hardware question. Lot's of my current pool of interested parties are folks who don't currently have guns that are looking to get one. I don't want to recommend that they buy something to bring to class that they might hate. For instance, my mother and sister both loved Airweight J-Frame .38's, so that's what they got. My wife hated it and ended up with a Sig 239DAO. Currently, my pistol collection is fairly paired down to what I actively use and consists of a G19.5 MOS w/RMR, G45 MOS w/RMR, and Ruger 22/45 Pac-Lite w/RMR. My concern is that trying to get a new gun owner/shooter into a quality dot setup is pretty dang expensive and includes what I might consider "enthusiast level" attention (battery changes, brightness adjustments, etc). Is it worth me picking up an iron-sighted G19 or G43/48 as a teaching gun to give new students a starting point? Many of these prospective students are women, my wife's friends, or my friend's wives; hence the slim Glock consideration.

    Honestly, my head is spinning with some of the logistical details around this, but I keep getting asked and I genuinely want to help and (perhaps arrogantly) feel I can offer these folks a much more solid foundation than what is generally marketed at such folks. Because I'm not looking at it as a money-making gig, what I charge would be relatively low, really little more than targets and something to make the time worthwhile.

    Ok enough rambling. Thoughts?
    I am probably the luckiest guy on earth. Because my first training ever was with an old NRA guy, but this guy was legit in every sense of the word. No fuddery, no dubious legal advice, cheap prices, and great attitude. In regard to your hardware question. What I tend to do, is I bring my 22lr and have them start on that. Then I move them up to my 9mms. Usually they tend to bring their own gun. Rarely will people look for training for something they don't own. I work with their gun since that's what they have.
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  4. #34
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    observation from a johnny come lately...

    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Not sure if this is the correct sub-form, please move if not.

    Like most of us, I've known way too many "NRA Certified" old fudd idiots propagating bad info from hardware to techniques to bad legal advice. I have several people in my family and friend groups who have asked me over the years if I could teach them to shoot. Usually, it's not that they want to become a competitive shooter or even an "active self-defense practitioner." They're not looking for a new hobby, but they realize that either no gun, or a gun they've had in a sock drawer for the last 10 years might not be the best thing and that maybe it would be best to get some basic instruction.

    I am happy to help provide said instruction. I enjoy helping people and enjoy teaching. I do not have a military or law enforcement background. I do have fairly significant experience with firearms from working at one of the largest and busiest Metro Atlanta area gun shops + indoor ranges for 15 years, coupled with several armorer certifications, in addition to professional training I've attended, and finally being close friends and regularly shooting with some pretty legit dudes in the industry who either are or were Mil and/or LEO instructors, SF, AMU, and other high-level shooters.

    Feedback from the informal "hey, come to the range with me and I'll show you a few things" has been great. To date, I have been paid for 1 formal class where a close friend's uncles and cousins wanted me to come to their family farm where they recreationally shoot and put on a formal class. It was pretty much a basic safe handling and marksmanship class, but again, the feedback was overwhelmingly positive.

    I'm sure some of you here do similar things, maybe not to the level of someone like @Mr_White, but what steps might I take to make this more of a "thing?"

    On another, more logistical note, I've got a hardware question. Lot's of my current pool of interested parties are folks who don't currently have guns that are looking to get one. I don't want to recommend that they buy something to bring to class that they might hate. For instance, my mother and sister both loved Airweight J-Frame .38's, so that's what they got. My wife hated it and ended up with a Sig 239DAO. Currently, my pistol collection is fairly paired down to what I actively use and consists of a G19.5 MOS w/RMR, G45 MOS w/RMR, and Ruger 22/45 Pac-Lite w/RMR. My concern is that trying to get a new gun owner/shooter into a quality dot setup is pretty dang expensive and includes what I might consider "enthusiast level" attention (battery changes, brightness adjustments, etc). Is it worth me picking up an iron-sighted G19 or G43/48 as a teaching gun to give new students a starting point? Many of these prospective students are women, my wife's friends, or my friend's wives; hence the slim Glock consideration.

    Honestly, my head is spinning with some of the logistical details around this, but I keep getting asked and I genuinely want to help and (perhaps arrogantly) feel I can offer these folks a much more solid foundation than what is generally marketed at such folks. Because I'm not looking at it as a money-making gig, what I charge would be relatively low, really little more than targets and something to make the time worthwhile.

    Ok enough rambling. Thoughts?
    what is the purpose of you embarking on teaching GA citizens firearms, e.g., self defense, acclimation to handguns, knowledge of GA carry, no carry zones, use of deadly force concepts, aiming, holsters, or cleaning, or how to purchase a firearm, or?

    since GA statutory does not mandate firearm training what specifically is your purpose of pushing the dot modality in lieu of the basics of proper aiming and building muscle memory, ad nauseam.

    sidebar, you furnish the 'unsighted' firearm for training, using red dot to hit the bull's eye at what distance? [consider using blank paper for your students.]

    further, just cuz you have "...fairly significant experience with firearms from working at one of the largest and busiest Metro Atlanta area gun shops [?] several armorer certifications, in addition to professional training [?] what makes you believe you have the appropriate skills, knowledge, attitude, as well as teaching background to withstand the scrutiny of a legal case when one of your 'customers' [remember you are getting paid] uses their handgun in a self-defence situation ---improperly?

    finally, class size...several years ago class in Bellingham got to the point of actually loading cartridges into the firearm and one elderly participant, loaded live cartridges and committed suicide in the back of the classroom.

    by the way the waivers are completely worthless as you will still be sued civilly and possibly in criminal judicial proceedings...especially w/o any type of recognized credentials for yourself as well as basic lesson plans, etc...for your students to show you are consistent in your skills, knowledge, attitude, and teaching background towards your student's training.

    best...
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  5. #35
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious View Post
    what is the purpose of you embarking on teaching GA citizens firearms, e.g., self defense, acclimation to handguns, knowledge of GA carry, no carry zones, use of deadly force concepts, aiming, holsters, or cleaning, or how to purchase a firearm, or?

    since GA statutory does not mandate firearm training what specifically is your purpose of pushing the dot modality in lieu of the basics of proper aiming and building muscle memory, ad nauseam.

    sidebar, you furnish the 'unsighted' firearm for training, using red dot to hit the bull's eye at what distance? [consider using blank paper for your students.]

    further, just cuz you have "...fairly significant experience with firearms from working at one of the largest and busiest Metro Atlanta area gun shops [?] several armorer certifications, in addition to professional training [?] what makes you believe you have the appropriate skills, knowledge, attitude, as well as teaching background to withstand the scrutiny of a legal case when one of your 'customers' [remember you are getting paid] uses their handgun in a self-defence situation ---improperly?

    finally, class size...several years ago class in Bellingham got to the point of actually loading cartridges into the firearm and one elderly participant, loaded live cartridges and committed suicide in the back of the classroom.

    by the way the waivers are completely worthless as you will still be sued civilly and possibly in criminal judicial proceedings...especially w/o any type of recognized credentials for yourself as well as basic lesson plans, etc...for your students to show you are consistent in your skills, knowledge, attitude, and teaching background towards your student's training.

    best...
    Yeah man, youíre right. Iíll just tell my family and friends I canít help them gain familiarity with firearms or learn to shoot.
    Food Court Apprentice
    Semper Paratus certified AR15 armorer
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  6. #36
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    Hey mods @Clusterfrack @LittleLebowski can we just shut this one down please? Maybe poor writing on my part, but the responses have drifted pretty far from my original intended question.
    Food Court Apprentice
    Semper Paratus certified AR15 armorer
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Hey mods @Clusterfrack @LittleLebowski can we just shut this one down please? Maybe poor writing on my part, but the responses have drifted pretty far from my original intended question.
    Especially with the comments just made by April 2022. SMH.

    Hope your efforts to assist your family and friends go well.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Yeah man, youíre right. Iíll just tell my family and friends I canít help them gain familiarity with firearms or learn to shoot.
    Sorry, my intent wasn't to aggravate but to quantify your purpose since, as you stated you are, quote

    "I have been paid for 1 formal class where a close friend's uncles and cousins wanted me to come to their family farm where they recreationally shoot and put on a formal class."

    So wanted to glean insight so myself and others might provide guidance to enhance your classes as well point out waiver fallacies beliefs.

    A final comment...be careful of using student's firearms & ammo as the operational capabilities of both items could be significant safety issues.

    Go well in your endeavors
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