I've been looking all over, and I can't find any relevant test results.
Is this load RA9T under another name, and could you reasonably expect it to expand when fired from a shorter barrel?
I'd do my own testing, but I have no access to a range that would permit such.
^^^^^
Many thanks, but I don't know if Clear Gel is valid.
And if the bullet can be expected to actually expand around 700 foot-seconds.
147 grain 9x19mm bullets should have a muzzle velocity of around 900 fps from a 3" auto or 2" revolver barrel.Originally Posted by gruntjim
The high ballistic coefficient means that even from a short barrel the bullet would not slow to 700 fps for 370 yards.
Modern 147 gr. 9mm Parabellum JHP should perform satisfactorily at typical self-defensive distances.
Fwiw, new member & my first post here; I found this forum while searching for info on the Q4429 load & trying to find out if it actually was the same as the M1153. I wasn't familiar with the Q4429 until buying a half case out of curiosity last year, and for whatever reason, my edc gun just loves the silly stuff accuracy-wise, so it became my carry load. Anyway, I put a couple rounds of it through (non-organic) clear gel a while back, and seems like it may be relevant to this thread. Performance was almost identical, which is surprising with such different barrel lengths.
From the pistol (a P30SK):
https://youtu.be/etM0bchxv1U
From the 16" carbine:
https://youtu.be/tTEhiy7CfRI
Many thanks. I've worked with a lot of people who greatly respect the RA9T, so it was worth seeing if performance is equivalent.
I can't tell much from CB gel, but that seems encouraging.
You're more than welcome. Historically I've used lighter, faster loads in 9mm; mostly 9BPLE and Corbon 100 grain since the late 90's. But the little HK that I started carrying a couple years ago prefers heavy bullets, and just loves this particular load. It was good to see that it (at least apparently) works well. I was very surprised at how similar the results were with the pistol's 3" barrel and the carbine's 16"; basically no difference besides a slightly greater folding-back of the petals from the carbine. Other than that, penetration & expansion both were darn near identical.
I haven't chronographed the Q4429 load yet, but the RA9T load had a muzzle velocity of 889 FPS when fired from a SIG P229. The accuracy/precision of the RA9T load was quite remarkable for a bullet of this construction type.
Chronograph Data for 9mm Luger LE Loads
As we all know, the muzzle velocities that ammunition manufacturers advertise for their ammunition and the muzzle velocities that we actually obtain from our CCW or duty weapons are rarely the same. Most often the velocities from our carry weapons will be lower than that advertised by the manufacturers.
It’s not that the manufacturers are trying to deceive us. It’s just that they tend to use “test barrels” to obtain their velocity readings. These test barrels usually have minimum spec SAAMI chambers and tend to be slightly longer the barrels typically found in carry weapons. These factors combine to give higher velocities than those from a typical carry weapon.
For this test session I examined fifteen different 9mm Luger “LE” loads from three different manufacturers, in three different pressure ranges (standard, +P, +P+) in four different bullet weights. The SAAMI specification for the maximum average pressure for a standard 9mm Luger load is 35,000 PSI. The 9mm Luger +P (pronounced plus-P, indicating higher pressure) load is specified at 38,500 PSI. To my knowledge, there is no SAAMI spec for +P+ loads.
Four of the different bullet designs that were examined in this session:
Federal HST
Federal Hydra-Shok
Winchester Ranger-T
Speer Gold Dot
All of the loads examined for this session come loaded in nickel-plated brass cases as exemplified by the Winchester Ranger-T round shown below. (Note the alien pod-like appearance of the round.)
In the Speer Gold Dot design, you can clearly see the petals of the copper jacket that extend over the mouth of the hollow point and down into the cavity of the hollow point. The Gold Dot design also leaves some of the lead core exposed at the mouth of the hollow point. The Gold Dot also utilizes a bonded jacket/lead core construction.
The petals of the copper jacket in the Winchester Ranger-T bullet also extend down into the mouth of the hollow point, but have a tear-drop shape to them. As previously noted, the rim of the hollow-point on the Ranger-T is a series of semi-circular ridges.
The Federal HST bullet has the most unique design of the bullets examined in this session. Note how the lead core at the mouth of the hollow point has water-drop shaped cut-outs. Also note the very long skives in the copper jacket that extend almost to the case mouth and the very deeply notched shape of the skives.
The signature center “post” of Federal’s older design Hydra-Shok bullet can be seen below.
Chronographing was conducted using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program. All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds each.
I chose a 9mm SIG Sauer P229 with its traditionally rifled barrel as the test vehicle as a representation of a pistol that might be carried on duty or as a CCW piece. The barrel on the 9mm P229 is 3.8” long. The factory barrel used for testing had 200 rounds through it prior to the beginning of this test session.
Atmospheric conditions were recorded on a Kestrel 4000 Pocket Weather Tracker.
Temperature: 72 degrees F
Humidity: 26.8%
Barometric pressure: 30.03 inHg
Elevation: 950 feet above sea level
The data.
You may have noticed the “SB” nomenclature for one of the Speer 124 grain loads. It stands for “short barrel.” Speer states they have:
“created an entire category of specialized ammunition designed specifically for back-up guns. . . . We redesigned select Gold Dot bullets to make the cavity larger for reliable expansion at the reduced velocities common to short barrel handguns. . . if a semi-auto is your gun of choice, our offerings are ideal for expansion in barrels as short as three inches.”
The barrel of a Kahr MK9 measures 3.0” in length, so I chronographed the “short barrel” Speer load through an MK9 for comparison to the SIG P229. (I also chronographed the three other Speer loads for further comparison.) The factory barrel in the MK9 had 820 rounds through it prior to this test session. It is interesting to note that the 147 grain load showed the lowest percentage of velocity loss through the MK9.
Comparison data.
Besides using the actual muzzle velocities in external ballistic calculations, one of the other interesting things that the actual muzzle velocities can be used for is calculating the comparative recoil energies of particular handgun/ammunition combinations.
....
Member of the General Population
@Molon - Man, that was a lot of work! My chrono data using the 124-grain +P HST from my 4" PX4 agrees with yours - mine was about 20 fps faster, which could be due to barrel length, a different lot, or the phase of the moon.
Just FYI, R-P 147-grain Golden Sabre went 900 fps from my gun, so it's about the same velocity as the Winchester load.
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