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Thread: Please help me pick a new "duty" shotgun and set it up

  1. #21
    Member L-2's Avatar
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    Regarding Post 20.

    I only fully retired 5 years ago. In my California department where I worked, it's my understanding the Calif. academies generally taught the pump-action shotgun and not a carbine, but I don't know if it was a Calif. requirement or just standard operating procedure. I also don't know if the larger departments, which might be able to conduct their own in-house academies, could leave out the shotgun training; or substitute-in rifle training.

    Where I worked, rifle training was individually-requested and approved-issued case-by-case/as-needed/time with time & budget considered. Perhaps the OP has more knowledge as to how Calif. police academies and Calif. "POST" operates. The shotgun was more typically a "pool" gun with only a few actually issued to an individual whereas the AR15 was issued to an individual. My department didn't allow personally owned handguns (except for BUGs), shotguns, or rifles. Some other departments would allow more personally-owned-duty firearms, although prior to me being hired there, it used to allow such. My prior department allowed personally-owned firearms, but this was prior to rifles/carbines taking off like they did.

  2. #22
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Not to hijack my own thread, but...

    @L-2 @Borderland

    I'm not sure what other agencies are carrying around here besides the 870P. I know Oakland PD, ACSO and CCCSO are all still using the 870. SFPD is stuck with their ancient Beretta 1201FP's. @AMC can probably provide more info. Shotguns don't get the love and respect they deserve around here anymore and any training class I go to typically is centered around the carbine and pistol. I remember being at a firearms instructor day around 2012 at ACSO's range and people being blown away at what I could do with a standard bead-on-pedestal 870P and Federal Flite-Control 00 Buck acting like it was some sort of voodoo. Maybe if you actually spent time with a shotgun you wouldn't be so amazed.

    Regarding the California POST Basic Academy, it's still stuck in about 1995 when it comes to firearms. Here is a link to the current Learning Domain:
    https://post.ca.gov/portals/0/post_d...D_35_V-2.5.pdf

    There is no rifle taught in the academy. They don't even get any familiarization on it. Per CA POST regulations, if you want to carry a rifle you have to take a CA POST-certified rifle class post-academy (usually a couple days long). If your rifle is under 16" you have to take one that is a "short barreled" certified class. Like I said, stuck in 1995.

    The latest I just heard last week is that LAPD is considering yanking patrol rifles in a knee jerk reaction after the Burlington Coat Factory call a month or two back. Apparently North Hollywood is too much a distant memory.

    I've also seen some pretty dumb logic when it comes to rifles. Just a couple years ago Walnut Creek PD near me had rifles numbered and assigned to patrol cars that were only equipped with iron sights. Each one shot somewhere completely different (they probably have fixed it by now). Around the same time, Hayward PD had done the same thing with all their rifles sighted in for 7 yards because "you know...LEOKA." I'm sure (hope) they've fixed that by now.

    Academy recruits basically get very rudimentary training on the 870 usually with crap 00 Buck or birdshot and if they're super lucky, a few slugs. CCCSO (the academy we use) has a fleet of 870P Max's from the mid-2000's, which are better than many academies.

    It's pretty clear when your read the California Assembly Bill 481 (the current hell I've been stuck in for weeks) that our legislators consider a pump-action shotgun a "normal" police long gun and that anything else is "militarized." I think California's legislators still think it's the days of Adam 12.

  3. #23
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    I grew up hunting deer with a bead barrel shotgun. Years later I shot a lot of buckshot and slugs on a state range. I'm comfortable with a bead and prefer one to sights. I do understand how new shooters have trouble operating pump shotguns and am convinced that regular buckshot's high recoil level in light security shotguns restricts their usefulness as a general issue weapon. About AR's and some PD policy. I think that they may object to an image of pistol grip and magazine protruding. Of course, that's stupid but look at council make-up. Reading here for the last few years has reinforced that training budgets are inadequate. I was surprised to learn that skill with weapons is looked on askance by some admin people.

    My cop fantasy was being a beat cop walking a downtown beat and interacting with the same folks over a 25 year period. I carry a big stick and a Model 10 Smith and an air weight J in a side pocket. My dirt clod, rock, and can shooting skill gave me the reputation of pistol expert.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Back on topic...

    @GJM

    Don't you have both of these? Thoughts?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevH View Post
    If I were still only a patrol cop I could use an 870 for the rest of my career and do just fine, saving myself the money and the hassle, but part of my job is to stay abreast of changes in the industry and provide educated responses to the aforementioned questions. I've found that one of the best ways of doing that is to actually own/use the items versus relying on the study of others, factory demos I have for a few weeks, and just looking at what other people buy or recommend.

    So, I'll sell some stuff I don't use, stuff I tried that I was "meh" about or didn't work for me, and use that money to buy something I can learn from. Right now I just want to decide what that is!
    Based on the bolded part above, I would recommend that you purchase and learn the Beretta 1301 over the Benelli M2, and I say this as the owner of a Benelli M1S90.

    I say this because, while LOP and recoil characteristics are not such a big deal to you, they will be to some of the other coppers you will be passing this knowledge on to. The Benelli is somewhat of a legacy shotgun platform, while the 1301 is a new up-and-comer. It will be more easily adapted to shorter-statured officers, will have less recoil for those who will be sensitive to such, and will more readily run the lighter loads that choke the Benelli inertia system. The other officers in your agency.....those who will not take the time and trouble that you will....will be better served with the Beretta than the Benelli, and therefore that is what you should utilize.

    Just my $0.02.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by KevH View Post
    Back on topic...

    @GJM

    Don't you have both of these? Thoughts?
    Yep, I have multiples of both. I like them both in different ways, but to summarize, I would rather carry and admin handle a 14 inch M2, and rather shoot a 1301. I would put a micro on any shotgun I used for defense, because I lean towards slugs, and want reach out and touch something with confidence capability.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I’m thinking about adding the XS sights for ribbed shotgun to my VR shotgun. Whichever you go with, that may be a good option for you.
    https://www.opticsplanet.com/xs-sigh...gun-sight.html
    I just brought home a 21" 1301C and have tentative plans for one of these for three gun (no machining):
    https://fusionfirearms.com/fixed-fib...s-6-8mm-ts029f
    I plan to try a little piece of 3M VHB under it, unless it makes it too high (ETA: then will use a dab of RTV).

    I do not have so much to contribute, because I have three of the Berettas and none of the Benellis, but I have had my 391 Xtreama-2 for probably fifteen years and it has instilled great confidence by being VERY tolerant of my low maintenance bad habits. I did a lot of skeet and sporting clays with it, who knows but I am sure I have 10k through it, maybe 20k, and the only times I clean it is when I have another reason to have taken it apart.
    Last edited by mmc45414; 02-15-2022 at 09:00 AM.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    I spent some time with a department-owned M4 and a buddy's LTT 1301 this afternoon. I only shot Federal Flite Control 00 Buck and a mix of Federal and Winchester slugs because that's what I had on hand.

    It reconfirmed I really don't like ghostring sights and don't care for pistol grips on a shotguns. The LOP on the 1301 was way too short for me so I don't want to judge it too harshly on that (I'm 6'3" with a 36" sleeve length...I typically prefer around 15" LOP on a clay/wing shooting gun and at least 14" on a "tactical" shotgun).

    That being said...the M4 was absolutely flawless. I had one bobble with the 1301 dropping a shell into the open chamber which was easily fixed just racking the action back and letting slam home. Both guns shot really well, but I found myself preferring the M4. Everything about how it ran just felt smooth. If it had a traditional stock and a bead sighted barrel I would have been in heaven.

    @Rex G I see what you mean about the safety thing. The Beretta's is where I index and I inadvertently knocked it off a couple times. The Benelli's was in the right spot :-)

    I wonder how the Remington V3 version runs? I know it's a knock-off of the same action as the M4. I'm not sure if I trust Big Green to get it right though.
    https://www.remarms.com/shotguns/tactical/v3-tactical

    I really want to try an M2 21" with ComfortTech. I may just buy one so I can.

  9. #29
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    Ive got a lot of time on both. Either will be more reliable than any pump on the market, in fact both are modern plastic people popper reliable.

    I prefer the 1301 and sold my M2 and went all in on the 1301. Some of the reasons for that arent pertinent to your uses, but I do find it softer and faster shooting.
    Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.

  10. #30
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    I have time on both, as well as a Benelli M4 and also a long time 870 LE user. My preference is the 1301 tactical for work purposes. My agency approved mine for use even though they issue 590s. While I prefer a rifle 99% of the time, I am comfortable enough with the 1301 though that I would not hesitate to grab it if I could not get to my rifle.
    As to your list:
    1.Rob Haught mod sight would work good in place of the factory on a CROM, as well as giving you the option to ad a red dot.
    2.You can get a 1301 without the Mesa pistol grip stock.
    3. There are tritium front sights available
    4. 'Extra crap' as you put it I consider mission essential. In this case a sling and a light which you have covered, as well as extra ammo on the gun.
    5. My 1301 has run everything through it so far from bird loads to duty load.

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