School me on SIRT

[TGS]

Context. Read EPF’s anecdote above.

He gifted a LEO squad a training tool and with no structured practice and no extra time except during down time, they got better.

I hate to tell you this JCN, but you're not discovering anything new. Use of dry-fire has been a training tool for a long time, by lots of different people and organizations. I've sustained myself for months at a time using just dry fire when working in foreign non-permissive environments where the discovery of my being armed would result in much greater ramifications than losing fractions of a second on a draw time at a match.

Here's some context for you: I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight with me on this, as I've never stated that dry-fire isn't a useful tool that helps people improve. So, I'm still not sure what you're trying to get out of this other than your typical autistic screeching.

And your assumption about my training below.

So contextually, just like the anecdote above. No commitment above what they were doing before and they improved a lot.

For me, I only spend 20-40 min a day handling guns and it was a direct swap for television watching.

You can get a shit ton done in a short period of time and it doesn’t have to be all-encompassing.

It's not an assumption on my part. You post some pretty insane round counts all over the forum, either in an apparent bid to one-up the forum every chance possible or as a result of poorly developed social skills.

So, here you're attributing your claimed proficiency to dropping 20-40 minutes a day of TV, and not the tens of thousands of dollars of ammunition you shoot per year? That's either disingenuous on your part, or a "plot hole" in who you're trying to portray yourself as if you got ahead of yourself in posting how many rounds you actually shoot.

Speaking as someone who's on track to retire at 50 and bought a Porsche in cash last year, there's still no way I'd be able to replicate the amount of training you claim to do....and if I can't afford it, the average American earner sure as shit isn't going to get anywhere near it outside of some exceptional circumstances such as it being their job to shoot that much. That was the point of my post in an entirely unrelated, different thread from this one which for whatever bizarre JCN reason you've decided to cross-pollinate your bullshit with.

[JCN]

I may not agree with you all of the time, but I absolutely hope you keep all this shooting nerdery up.

Okay, ready for more shooting nerdery? This is going to be a deep nerd dive.

Interesting, I've never heard anyone talk about "trigger finger weight training" before but that makes sense.

Maybe that's why I shoot revolvers better than autoloaders - finger being trained from recreational climbing?

Not coincidentally, two of my M/GM friends are also previous rock climbers....

So @TGS might think that my success in shooting is related to crazy amounts of time pounding away at the sport, but it's just not true.

Again as an illustration of how I know what I know, these are quotes from Moylan's training thread where I coached him.

Today was day 6 of this coaching regimen. JCN modified the dry fire routine a bit for today. Yesterday I did my second live fire session. I've got a little homestead on a bit of acreage so I shoot here at home. This makes brief but frequent live fire a possibility for me, and JCN is taking advantage of that.

I fired 16 rounds each of the first two live fire sessions. This wouldn't make a lot of sense, necessarily, if I had to travel 30 minutes to the range and pay $20 for an hour's lane rental. I failed again on the live fire yesterday, though there was measurable improvement over the first time, and I was sort of 'close enough' to meeting the expectation that it made sense to jump things forward. It's encouraging to see growth after just 5 days. I would actually say it was significant improvement, not just a tiny change, but a meaningful one.

And my response to him:

This makes me happy to hear and I hope others are listening.

Would you ever have thought you would have made this much significant improvement in 5 days and 32 live fire rounds?

If you follow my journal, you'd say YES.

It's not that I have any particular talent for shooting.

My talent is for learning and identifying how people learn.

It drives me nuts to see these journals where people spin their wheels for YEARS not improving when if they'd just shut their ego down and listen, they could improve as fast as I have.

I love helping people who love helping themselves, but they need an open mind and no ego resistance.

So that's where I'm coming from. I can help others learn and get better even in 5 days with 20 min a day and 32 live fire rounds.

It's not about pounding away, it's about figuring out what goes into the sport and working on those things efficiently.


NERDERY NERDERY NERDERY ALERT!!!!




If you think of simple physics and trigger press, you have strength which is related to speed and you have coordination.

You have your finger and you have the trigger as the variables.

Let's talk about coordination first. This is part of timing the vision to finger triggering and setting and resetting the finger without extra travel to economize motion.

But there's a separate part, which is the strength / speed part.

It's no different than any other sport. An athlete will hit the weight room and ALSO do coordination drills. They won't just play matches or games. That's the test, not the practice.

So when you're trying to build up skill, it makes sense to take a similar approach. Just playing matches isn't going to get you there quickly.

-------------------------------------------


Strength / speed.

If you take a 929 revolver for example. You can't go lighter than about 6 pounds for the press and you can't really shorten the reset and stroke.

But someone like Jerry Miculek and Michael Poggie can do 0.17-18 splits on target.

I physically cannot pull the trigger that fast. I just can't. I'm not strong enough to do it and I can feel my muscles fatigue and I get slower and slower in a practice session.

If I can't pull the trigger that fast because I'm not strong enough, it doesn't matter how my grip, vision and coordination are (the shooting specific parts) because I just physically can't do it.

So the way to build strength is weight lifting. But it takes time to do. You can't go from bench pressing 100 pounds to 400 pounds in a month, even if you really want to and even if you spend 12 hours a day in the gym. It takes longitudinal time of recovery and repair.

If you were trying to build strength in one set of muscles, how many minutes a day would you spend lifting with those muscles? You wouldn't actually have to spend much time per day, but you'd want to do it over time.

Fun anecdote. A few years back when I mainly shot right handed I went to an experienced masseuse and she was stricken by curiosity on why my right forearm was so much larger than the left and larger than normal for what she was used to seeing.

Since then, I've dedicated more time to left handed strength training but the physical results of training were apparent to the masseuse straight away.

It's a physical sport (action pistol) and you have to build and develop those muscles. If you only slow fire shoot, you never develop those muscles (nor the coordination necessary to time the presses accurately to vision).

[JCN]

It's not an assumption on my part. You post some pretty insane round counts all over the forum, either in an apparent bid to one-up the forum every chance possible or as a result of poorly developed social skills.

So, here you're attributing your claimed proficiency to dropping 20-40 minutes a day of TV, and not the tens of thousands of dollars of ammunition you shoot per year? That's either disingenuous on your part, or a "plot hole" in who you're trying to portray yourself as if you got ahead of yourself in posting how many rounds you actually shoot.

Speaking as someone who's on track to retire at 50 and bought a Porsche in cash last year, there's still no way I'd be able to replicate the amount of training you claim to do....and if I can't afford it, the average American earner sure as shit isn't going to get anywhere near it outside of some exceptional circumstances such as it being their job to shoot that much.

I really respect your perspective and information on the forum and am not trying to pick a fight with you.

For context when the pandemic hit, I was preserving ammo and documented every round shot: (looks like 4500 rounds in three months or so, including 22LR)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....aining-program

I saw significant improvement in less than 300 rounds per week. I had Moylan improve significantly with 32 live fire rounds.

Pre-pandemic, I shot 43,000 rounds in one year when ammo was cheap. I was still only B class USPSA.

When I started shooting USPSA 2019 it was kind of entering the pandemic and I think I shot less than 20k rounds that year?

When the pandemic hit, I was sitting on 45,000 of gamer ammo.

I currently have 33,000 of that gamer ammo left.

I'm burning through more ammo these days than in the past few years working on PCC recoil management, but that's a recent thing.

In 2020-2021 I was probably shooting 8000-12000 per year? That's on the low end for competitive shooters.

I'm not sure where your perspective is for "insane round counts" but these days a box of 500 will last me about two weeks.

I have a wrist injury and I can't shoot more than a few boxes at one range session. PCC has helped, but I still have to be careful.

Absolutely my improvement has been 98% dry and 2% live.

Dry fire isn't a new concept, but most people are inefficient in their progress because they neglect the things they really have to train.

[JCN]

You post some pretty insane round counts all over the forum, either in an apparent bid to one-up the forum every chance possible or as a result of poorly developed social skills.

So, here you're attributing your claimed proficiency to dropping 20-40 minutes a day of TV, and not the tens of thousands of dollars of ammunition you shoot per year?

The TLDR version for the first statement:
Both?

Second statement:
Yes because I shot 3x as many rounds per year when I didn't dry fire and I still was only B class.
I didn't figure shit out until I started treating dry fire and the sport as a sport.

So yes, I got a lot better with smart dry fire and it's not due to the ammunition consumption.

10k rounds per year isn't a lot in gaming circles.
For reloaders that might only be $2k-4k yearly.

Heck, that's like the cost of a carbon fiber ashtray on your porsche build.

[TGS]

I
I'm not sure where your perspective is for "insane round counts" but these days a box of 500 will last me about two weeks.

Okay, well, just to play along: in another thread you stated you'd be putting between 15,000-30,000 rounds this year on your one MPX alone. That's just one MPX, not accounting for your other guns. And, given what ammo you state you're shooting, that's about $15k of ammunition at current prices for that MPX alone. Just to put that into perspective for you, the amount you claim to shoot in one year is roughly equivalent to a major purchase that most Americans require 4-5 years of financing to afford (i.e. a car). Yes, JCN, you shoot a lot, even if the pandemic put a dip on that activity (welcome to earth, dude, everyone's activities took a dip).

I'm still not sure what you're looking to get out of bringing all of this here into this thread; I've never voiced any objections to the utility of dry fire training, and hadn't even been involved in this topic. You're an incredibly gifted shooter, an incredible human being that has figured out the secrets that nobody else can, you excel in everything you do in life, and are able to focus your attention and energy more than anyone. I'm very happy for you.

[JCN]

Okay, well, just to play along: in another thread you stated you'd be putting between 15,000-30,000 rounds this year on your one MPX alone. That's just one MPX, not accounting for your other guns. And, given what ammo you state you're shooting, that's about $15k of ammunition at current prices for that MPX alone. Just to put that into perspective for you, the amount you claim to shoot in one year is roughly equivalent to a major purchase that most Americans require 4-5 years of financing to afford (i.e. a car). Yes, JCN, you shoot a lot, even if the pandemic put a dip on that activity (welcome to earth, dude, everyone's activities took a dip).

Thanks for clarifying. That 15-30k rounds is what I plan on doing this year given shooting 2500 in one month in training up my skills. Might not need to shoot that much if I get to a certain point of skill.

I haven't shot anything else in any volume since getting the MPX except for some P365 to tune magazines.

So that's going to be 99% of the ammunition I expend this year.

Most high volume shooters reload at $0.20 or less per round. And the ammo I purchased is still of the $10 per box cost to me. I still have a bunch from my really high consumption days.

My wrist injury doesn't let me shoot that high volume with pistols so I was giddy when discovering that PCC didn't bother me. I guess my perspective is competitive shooters who are regular dudes with regular jobs who shoot 2x the volume I do easily.

[SouthNarc]

I wish the SIRT had a constant on feature that didn't require one to activate the trigger. I have mine modded to that effect and use it to demonstrate movement around people while holding a gun, so everyone can see exactly what the muzzle is pointing at. Modded for that it works really well.

[UNM1136]

I wish the SIRT had a constant on feature that didn't require one to activate the trigger. I have mine modded to that effect and use it to demonstrate movement around people while holding a gun, so everyone can see exactly what the muzzle is pointing at. Modded for that it works really well.

Interested. Is this something a quasi-idiot user can do themselves?

pat

[Shawn Dodson]

I wish the SIRT had a constant on feature that didn't require one to activate the trigger. I have mine modded to that effect and use it to demonstrate movement around people while holding a gun, so everyone can see exactly what the muzzle is pointing at. Modded for that it works really well.

You can do that with a blue gun with an accessory rail and a cheap Amazon laser sight.

[SouthNarc]

You can do that with a blue gun with an accessory rail and a cheap Amazon laser sight.

I'm aware.