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Thread: School me on SIRT

  1. #1
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    School me on SIRT

    Anything better? Looking for the laser and the reset, because, practice.

    Any place better to buy than another? Any place to look for a used version (G17 iteration)?

    Thanks in advance.


    Mods, feel free to move this if M&T isn’t the best fit.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    Anything better? Looking for the laser and the reset, because, practice.

    Any place better to buy than another? Any place to look for a used version (G17 iteration)?

    Thanks in advance.


    Mods, feel free to move this if M&T isn’t the best fit.
    I have owned a SIRT and there are advantages to it.

    Doesn’t look like a gun, can’t harm anyone.

    From a training standpoint, I prefer red dots and reset triggers if you have a dedicated dry gun.



    This is a G23 with a reset trigger and a cheapy laser bullet (I prefer RDS) for dry.

    https://www.glockstore.com/Reset-Trigger-Kit-for-Glock

  3. #3
    We've had discussions about this subject before.

    I've tried SIRT's and I really don't see how they would be an aide to anything beyond a neophyte. I know many folks swear by them, but their trigger replicates nothing I've ever used.

    I do know that when I was there several years ago the Washington State Academy was using them during a good portion of their firearms training. I don't know if practicing flipping the trigger back and forth as fast as you can while watching the laser flash is the best technique for the average police officer. My concern would be that real world the average officer probably wouldn't grip the pistol with sufficient force to have control of the weapon by the third shot at that cadence, but that's just me.

    I have several Glock dryfire triggers and they are great for either replicating the first shot or replicating trigger control if you release the trigger completely forward.

    For nearly the price of a SIRT you can get a basic Cool-Fire recoil trainer:

    The Glock Store Kit seems to be a bargain at $400.00. It's a basic kit that fills off of 90 gram CO2 bomblets. As close as I could figure CoolFire (Dvorak Recoil Systems) sells it for $480.00.

    https://www.glockstore.com/Recoil-La...=1&custcol13=8

    With that kit you get between 15 and 25 shots off one barrel refill. They have a Rapid Fill Adapter that will give you over 100 shots a refill. The problem is that it adds length to the barrel, I had to heat my holsters and reform the kydex even on the open-end ones. Not a big deal, but something to think about.

    This is the CookFire site for different brands and options:

    https://coolfiretrainer.com/asccusto...art=0&recNum=6

    I have one with the High Capacity Rapid Fill Adapter and Visible Laser, and the paintball tank fill adapater. Currently that would run $575.00

    I like it but because of space constraints have it set up in my shop which is 5-6 miles away. I spend most of my dry-fire time at home pressing a dead trigger with no laser. Some folks claim that because the recoil isn't the same as a 9mm it isn't a viable trainer. I agree it isn't the same as live fire, but a helluva lot better than reset triggers with a laser insert stuck in the barrel.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  4. #4
    I've been considering the Coolfire thing since discovering it last year, especially since I am already a sodastream addict and always have sodastream canisters on deck.

    Do you consider the laser to be worthwhile? I was considering just buying the basic laser-less system just because it resets the trigger by cycling the action, unlike dryfire triggers.

  5. #5
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    I finally got one myself last year and I really like it a lot. I credit it to helping me maintain some semblence of trigger press as my live fire volume cut in half. The safety margin and convenience is appealing to me.

    I'm also predisposed to their effectiveness from the experience of the older lad returning home to visit one holiday and having gone roughly 8 mos without firing a live fire shot but working his SIRT daily. He burned me down at the range at every distance, every drill. Now, other variables at play. He's a crazy athlete, "strong like buul" and was a very serious student of the pistol before that hiatus. But plenty good athletes can lose a sense of pressing the trigger right.

    It is my opinion based on no science, that all trigger presses are valuable trigger presses. The concentration on the grip and a press without moving the sights etc translates across platforms. Not perfectly but I think there is some overlap. But I can't prove that.

    So . . . YMMV
    Last edited by JHC; 02-14-2022 at 06:54 AM.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Some folks claim that because the recoil isn't the same as a 9mm it isn't a viable trainer. I agree it isn't the same as live fire, but a helluva lot better than reset triggers with a laser insert stuck in the barrel.
    I consider myself a little bit of a dry fire efficiency and training SME so I'll just put an alternate point of view here in that context.

    In practice I either want the same recoil as live fire or NONE AT ALL.

    Dry fire for me is a place to divest the mechanics from the recoil so when I dry fire I don't want recoil of any sort.

    Similarly, dry fire is a place for me to divest the vision from the recoil, so I want to be using the SIGHTS and not a laser or any other secondary feedback mechanism to tell me what my trigger press and transition movement is doing.

    That's why I don't use airsoft anymore despite having a complete setup. It's not as efficient or as helpful for me as dry practicing with a red dot and no recoil.

    If you want to delve into more dry fire nerdery.....




    Having a different recoil cadence is IMO harmful to your primary training.

    Here's the super nerdy part of recoil management....

    The whole goal is to improve vision to trigger timing in order to hit the single "bounce" or oscillation accurately. The required timing is a function of the gun, recoil and recoil management (resonant frequency) and then the question is whether you can hit that bounce at the nadir accurately. That's why my baseball to T-ball analogy.

    Dry is where you work on the swing. Live is where you work on timing the swing to hit a moving ball on recoil.

    Airsoft/coolfire kind of jumbles the two and can get in the way.





    I'll put this in some numbers and add some videos to illustrate.



    If you have an airsoft / coolfire gun, what's the resonant frequency in that system if you wanted to time single bounce trigger pulls on doubles? Is it 0.15 splits? Or is it 0.20 splits? Or is a degenerating 0.20-0.25 slowing split as the system loses pressure?

    If you were shooting to one bounce vision, you'd be chasing the dot vision trigger timing and that timing would be different than your live fire... burning in conflicting visualization and training.


    Here are some visual examples.

    The slide speed of a P365 is FAST.

    It's really hard to catch it on one bounce.

    If you watch the middle of this video, I'm having to work really hard to catch it on the single bounce (where the sights return to target and you trigger right as it gets to the target on the first recoil pass, not the second or third oscillation).

    The first bounce in that system is around a 0.12 or less but that's hard to do reproducibly and accurately.





    Now if you put a compensator on the system, it slows the slide down so it's easier to track and trigger on first bounce accurately.

    It brings the resonant frequency down to 0.15 or so which is much more manageable and reproducible to time a trigger press to vision.





    That's at 7 yards and three of the four shots are in a fist size group and all are A zones. If you watch the slo mo or use the Youtube 0.25x speed, you can see that it's pretty close to the single bounce triggering.





    Even more nerdery......


    That's part of comp tuning as well. For example the factory Czechmate compensator is too efficient in the vertical direction so the slide return to battery is so fast and flat that it's hard to track the sights on the first bounce accurately.

    It's probably like a 0.11 or less. So I wound up having to wait for second bounce (or being off bounce and inaccurate) and triggering at 0.15+ splits which was worse than my CO gun!

    When I experimented with drilling side ports to prevent rapid return, it made it MUCH easier to track and time vertically.

    Went to a different comp where the resonant frequency is around a 13 and that's much more workable.








    That's a long winded way of saying that I don't want ANY recoil if it's not faithful to the gun system because I want to visualize accurate timing of the gun recoil. I can get more out of dry firing a double where the red dot does not move at all versus an Airsoft / Coolfire where I lose that visual feedback and don't get the benefit of proper cadence learning.
    Last edited by JCN; 02-14-2022 at 07:22 AM.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    I have owned a SIRT and there are advantages to it.

    Doesn’t look like a gun, can’t harm anyone.
    I've had one for years. I probably should use it more.

    Of note, it looks exactly like a gun except for the color of the slide.

  8. #8
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    Two things - I have a G17 SIRT.

    When I was waiting to get my Erie County permit - held up by Covid, it was one of the only pistol handling options I had besides a solid dummy G17.

    Thus, I could use it to keep in practice with a draw stroke and some kind of trigger pull with some indication of a hit. So it works for me. I still do that at home.

    A funny story. So I religiously keep the guns I don't carry stored away. However, I left the SIRT out. My wife calls me and says - Hey, you are supposed to keep the guns in the lock-up. I am chagrined and say where? What gun? She says the red one on top. I say - Oh, that's my Laser Glock. She says - they are making Laser guns now!? I explain and we laugh.

    Which system is better for practice is an empirical question.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    @JCN, great input.


    I have to say that the only other person I can remember being so meticulously scientific about developing technical skill, and so dedicated to using himself as a public P-F guinea pig for his own ideas is probably Gabe White, and it sure panned out well for him.

    I may not agree with you all of the time, but I absolutely hope you keep all this shooting nerdery up.

    I can dig what you say about rigid control of the variables, re: exact live fire recoil, or no recoil at all. The same concept applies to practice of a stringed instrument vs visualization, incidentally.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    @JCN, great input.


    I have to say that the only other person I can remember being so meticulously scientific about developing technical skill, and so dedicated to using himself as a public P-F guinea pig for his own ideas is probably Gabe White, and it sure panned out well for him.

    I may not agree with you all of the time, but I absolutely hope you keep all this shooting nerdery up.

    I can dig what you say about rigid control of the variables, re: exact live fire recoil, or no recoil at all. The same concept applies to practice of a stringed instrument vs visualization, incidentally.
    Thanks man you get me. Probably because your technical background, which I appreciate. I'm going to tag @Le Français in here as a contextual thread of me attempting to show how I know what I know rather than for the sole purpose of showing you how awesome I think I am.

    When it comes to technical things like shooting and I'm guessing stringed instruments, it might be really hard to know with just words alone how much merit someone else's opinions hold. But all it would take is one video of someone playing that instrument with commentary to really know if they know what they're talking about.

    Based off PF hierarchy, I'm not someone to listen to.

    But based off scientific approach, experimentation results and historical success in other rigorous endeavors, I might be.

    I wish I was less abrasive and off-putting, but to me that comes at a trade off from peak efficiency which is my main goal from this hobby.

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