Is ball still best for .380 ACP Ammo for mouse guns?

[the Schwartz]

Currently I must carry my LCP II 8-5 on a daily basis due to the NPE I am in until the end of the year. Unfortunately my P365 is just a bit too bulky.

Is high quality ball ammo still the best choice for .380 mouse pistols? I am running Speer Lawman right now.

I know this has been discussed before but I just want to check to see if anything has changed significantly.

Nothing new under the sun.

As you are likely aware, penetration depth is strongly governed by the expansion ratio of JHPs. Where momentum (mass and velocity) is an extremely limited quantity with the .380 ACP, greater expansion ratios severely limit the penetration depth of .380 ACP JHPs where expansion ratios exceed 1.35x caliber.

In cases where JHP expansion ratio exceeds 1.35x caliber, maximum penetration depth with .380 ACP JHPs will fall short of the 12-inch mark often barely making it to a maximum depth of 10 inches. The only JHP design that I am aware of that successfully mitigates expansion ratio to the extent that a maximum penetration depth of 12 inches is reached is the Hornady XTP JHP so long as velocities do not exceed the 900 fps mark. Since velocity produces the dynamic pressure that drives JHP expansion, driving a JHP faster may result in a greater ratio that actually limits penetration depth instead of increasing it.

Barring the XTP JHP as an option in the .380 ACP, if your desire is to employ self-defense ammunition that will reliably penetrate to a depth of 12+ inches and reach vital organs and structures on less than perfect frontal target presentations, an FMJ is the only way to ensure that with the .380 ACP.

ETA: While there are those who fear using an FMJ in the .380 ACP due to concerns regarding over-penetration, those concerns are unfounded. .380 ACP FMJs in the usual weight range of 90 - 95 grains are incapable of more than about 18.5 inches of penetration which is at the high end of the recommended maximum penetration depth recommended by the F.B.I. test protocols. In the event that a .380 ACP FMJ were to exit a human torso, it would be aerodynamically destabilized with a velocity under 300 fps and unlikely to break human skin.

[4given]

Nothing new under the sun.

As you are likely aware, penetration depth is strongly governed by the expansion ratio of JHPs. Where momentum (mass and velocity) is an extremely limited quantity with the .380 ACP, greater expansion ratios severely limit the penetration depth of .380 ACP JHPs where expansion ratios exceed 1.35x caliber.

In cases where JHP expansion ratio exceeds 1.35x caliber, maximum penetration depth with .380 ACP JHPs will fall short of the 12-inch mark often barely making it to a maximum depth of 10 inches. The only JHP design that I am aware of that successfully mitigates expansion ratio to the extent that a maximum penetration depth of 12 inches is reached is the Hornady XTP JHP so long as velocities do not exceed the 900 fps mark. Since velocity produces the dynamic pressure that drives JHP expansion, driving a JHP faster may result in a greater ratio that actually limits penetration depth instead of increasing it.

Barring the XTP JHP as an option in the .380 ACP, if your desire is to employ self-defense ammunition that will reliably penetrate to a depth of 12+ inches and reach vital organs and structures on less than perfect frontal target presentations, an FMJ is the only way to ensure that with the .380 ACP.

ETA: While there are those who fear using an FMJ in the .380 ACP due to concerns regarding over-penetration, those concerns are unfounded. .380 ACP FMJs in the usual weight range of 90 - 95 grains are incapable of more than about 18.5 inches of penetration which is at the high end of the recommended maximum penetration depth recommended by the F.B.I. test protocols. In the event that a .380 ACP FMJ were to exit a human torso, it would be aerodynamically destabilized with a velocity under 300 fps and unlikely to break human skin.

Thanks Chuck! The laws of physics prevail! I discounted the .380 XTP long ago. A high quality (not high priced) Flat Nose FMJ by a major manufacturer that is not Winchester White Box would be nice. I feel pretty good with my choice of Speer Lawman but I am always holding out hope for something a little better.

[Clusterfrack]

Nothing new under the sun.

...an FMJ is the only way to ensure that with the .380 ACP.

Might the Lehigh XP be the new thing that makes .380 more or less as viable as .38 wadcutters? And 9mm viable for grizzly defense?

[4given]

Might the Lehigh XP be the new thing that makes .380 more or less as viable as .38 wadcutters? And 9mm viable for grizzly defense?

I would like to give these a try but at $36.99 per box of 20. It would cost $370 to run 200 rounds through this pistol for vetting. I just can't bring myself to do it.

[Clusterfrack]

I would like to give these a try but at $36.99 per box of 20. It would cost $370 to run 200 rounds through this pistol for vetting. I just can't bring myself to do it.

Understandable. If you reload, XP 90gr bullets are $35/50. I tested with 3.0gr of Titegroup for 850fps from a P380. Max load is 3.2gr for a 90gr bullet, but because the XP is copper, and longer, I didn't want to push it.

[the Schwartz]

Thanks Chuck! The laws of physics prevail! I discounted the .380 XTP long ago. A high quality (not high priced) Flat Nose FMJ by a major manufacturer that is not Winchester White Box would be nice. I feel pretty good with my choice of Speer Lawman but I am always holding out hope for something a little better.

You betcha.

TANSTAAFL.

As for flat nose FMJs—I'm assuming that you are looking for something that will give you straight line penetration—if you have access to the Fiocchi 85-grain FMJTC (709333), they might be worth exploring as an option.



Factory specs state that Fiocchi's 85-grain FMJTC has a (arguably optimistic) muzzle velocity of 355 mps (1,165 fps). Assuming that it can achieve that velocity from a 2.75-inch barrel, that puts maximum penetration depth in the 20-inch range...with the meplat making straight line penetration probable. From your LCPII, I'd expect about 950 fps at the muzzle....maximum (predicted) penetration depth should be right at 18 inches.

Picking up the G42 last year after our discussion about NPEs, I ended up choosing the Fiocchi 95-grain FMJRN which runs a solid 930 fps (15-shot average) from my G42's 3.25-inch barrel which should go just a shade over 19 inches.

[the Schwartz]

Might the Lehigh XP be the new thing that makes .380 more or less as viable as .38 wadcutters? And 9mm viable for grizzly defense?

That's hard to say.

The marketing ''hype'' that equates the radial fracturing produced by the XD and XP in 10% ordnance gelatin with what can be expected to occur in human soft tissues is misleading at best. I remain unconvinced that the XD and XP designs offer any improvement over ball when it comes to terminal performance in humans.

These days, unless I am restricted to carrying a Glock 42 (that's loaded with ball) in an NPE, I'm happy to go about my day with a Glock 19 loaded with Speer 124-grain +P Gold Dot JHPs.

[Navin Johnson]

I also believe that quality FMJ is the best choice for reliability. Little guns are finicky in general and littler guns are finickier. YMMV

[Clusterfrack]

That's hard to say.

The marketing ''hype'' that equates the radial fracturing produced by the XD and XP in 10% ordnance gelatin with what can be expected to occur in human soft tissues is misleading at best. I remain unconvinced that the XD and XP designs offer any improvement over ball when it comes to terminal performance in humans.

The main potential advantage of XP is the claimed ability to resist deflection. I wouldn't expect it to have different internal ballistics from an FMJ.

Reliability wise, they have been no worse than FMJ.

[MickAK]

That's hard to say.

The marketing ''hype'' that equates the radial fracturing produced by the XD and XP in 10% ordnance gelatin with what can be expected to occur in human soft tissues is misleading at best. I remain unconvinced that the XD and XP designs offer any improvement over ball when it comes to terminal performance in humans.

They transfer the psychic frustration of billions of stripped out Phillips screws to your opponent.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that bullet shape and material changes can penetrate better for the same push, with better reliability than hardcast. I think the XP rounds have a pretty solid claim to that at this point for niche applications, like .380 and dangerous game.

As far as radial fracturing I don't see a lot of claims for that with the XP rounds. The claims are physically possible for the XD or we wouldn't see those wounds in animals when used for hunting. People aren't deer or pigs, and until the XD rounds are adopted by a major city PD or Fed LE organization we won't know. I don't see that happening for any number of reasons, so it's fuzzy pictures of a torn apart pig or thousands of OIS data going back years. Guess which wins.