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Thread: Why doesn’t HK make low bore axis handguns like the P7 anymore?

  1. #11
    For many years I used a G23 as my 24-hour on/off duty pistol, and it never occurred to me that the .40 had significant recoil until I fired a co-worker's USP compact in .40. After 3-4 shots I stopped and stared at the gun quizzically, baffled by the muzzle flip.

    So I do think bore axis is a consideration, but I notice the difference quite a bit less in 9mm.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk45 View Post
    Exactly. I’m not sure why HK didn’t do this with the VP9. I know people love them, but I find the muzzle flip is much less controllable than my glocks or CZ’s. Not that this is relevant to the discussion but I also don’t understand why the VP9 feels so cheap compared with their legacy firearms like the HK45. Even the CZ feels better put together. Sorry, just venting. I know HK has stellar engineers but it just doesn’t seem like they are used to their potential.
    The HK45 is now a “legacy” firearm ?

    HK makes durable, reliable and mechanically accurate guns but there is no free lunch.

    Until the VP9, HK triggers polymer pistol were inferior to those of their competitors And the double recall spring system on the USP while it does mitigate recoil as intended, it makes fast splits difficult. The Spider-Man grip of the HK 45, P 30 etc. also makes the guns harder to track when firing multiple shots. They are a perfect example of what feels good in the hand versus flat sided pistols like Glocks and 1911s that perform well at speed. This is why Sigg with the assistance of Bruce gray developed the flight sided X grip for the P320 And why you almost never see serious USPSA or ID PA shooters running a P3 20 with the original/M 17 type grip.

    While I appreciate the attempt at modularity the HK 45 would have benefited greatly by retaining the original grip design as found on the HK45C.

    I do agree that the VP9 Seems to have more felt recoil than it’s competitors.

    There’s a saying that uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason.

    There’s a reason you see fewer and fewer HK pistols in the holsters of institutional users in the US. The biggest institutional user was US INS/US border patrol which eventually morphed into US Cbp/USBP. The rationale for adopting the HKUSP compact and later the P 2000 was durability. They were looking for a gun with a 10,000 round service life using what amounted to a plus P load in 40 Cal. The wisdom of trying to chase 357 Magnum ballistics in a compact polymer frame semi-auto pistol aside, the guns did prove durable and reliable but were very unpopular due to poor trigger poles and being difficult to shoot well.

    HK fan boys may be shocked and dismayed to hear it , but the HKP 2000 LEM 40 was generally loathed by most people who had to carry them. The USPC was a bit more popular and those who had them went to great lengths to hold onto them until the recent transition to Glock 9mms.

  3. #13
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    I could not agree more about the flat-sided grips.

    I got into centerfire pistols with a USP in 9mm, and except for the hoops to jump through to get a dot placed onto that slide and the need for a rail-mount adapter for light usage, the design has very little to apologize for. The trigger is not as good as other guns, but that didn't matter much to me back when that USP was my only pistol. I ended up breaking the original firing pin with dry fire. Going through that got rid of my low-left habit better than a trigger job would have.

    It didn't feel particularly "flippy" compared to other guns of similar weight in similar chamberings. I found that .45 and 10mm 1911s needed much more attention to technique for sight tracking and muzzle flip reduction than did the 9mm USP. I've never been fond of the bore axis argument, even though I'm now living life with Glocks.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    I could not agree more about the flat-sided grips.

    I got into centerfire pistols with a USP in 9mm, and except for the hoops to jump through to get a dot placed onto that slide and the need for a rail-mount adapter for light usage, the design has very little to apologize for. The trigger is not as good as other guns, but that didn't matter much to me back when that USP was my only pistol. I ended up breaking the original firing pin with dry fire. Going through that got rid of my low-left habit better than a trigger job would have.

    It didn't feel particularly "flippy" compared to other guns of similar weight in similar chamberings. I found that .45 and 10mm 1911s needed much more attention to technique for sight tracking and muzzle flip reduction than did the 9mm USP. I've never been fond of the bore axis argument, even though I'm now living life with Glocks.
    The double recoil spring of the USP full size guns is designed to mitigate recoil. The good news is it works as designed. The bad news is it does so at the expense of the cycling speed which makes fast splits....difficult. It's also likely why the USP 45s are capable of handling 45 Super without modification.

  5. #15
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    Man, the P7 is absolutely the push dagger of pistols.
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  6. #16
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    I actually thought the trigger on the USP 45 compact I had was fine. The DA was reasonably smooth and not too heavy. Much better than the HK45C, which was just terrible in DA. I think my Polish P64 was about the only gun that had a worse DA pull (and that’s only because you literally couldn’t pull it). Also had a P2000sk in LEM. I was fairly new to shooting when I had that gun… but I quickly sold it when I discovered the P239. Just a much better shooter for me. And I don’t think bore axis had much to do with it… Sigs don’t exactly have low bore axes either.

    I love the over-engineered “essence” of HK pistols. The steel, the fit and finish, and the build is fantastic. I’ve just found that I don’t shoot them as well as Sigs, berettas or other makes. I actually hated the grip on the USPc 45. Thin and deep. I found it hard to hold onto. Again, compared to the Sig P245… shootability was night and day. For me anyway.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    The double recoil spring of the USP full size guns is designed to mitigate recoil. The good news is it works as designed. The bad news is it does so at the expense of the cycling speed which makes fast splits....difficult. It's also likely why the USP 45s are capable of handling 45 Super without modification.
    How difficult; as in how bad are the splits? Is this percieved to be a functional problem in the context of pistol fighting or is this more of a problem for the "Instagram hero" video business? Considering TLG's work with the HK45 I guess mostly the latter or just the mass market?

    My experience with HK was a Euro safety P7 I shot a fair bit in the early 90's and a USP 9mm I got used for a good price, just curious about the gun. Parted with both but no real complaint with the USP other than riding the thumb safety conflicted with my 1911 style (which was my problem).
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    "Why doesn't HK?" Because HK. Because they're German. Because they know what you need better than you do. Because they don't care what you want. Because they're in business to make money, and they're making money.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    How difficult; as in how bad are the splits? Is this percieved to be a functional problem in the context of pistol fighting or is this more of a problem for the "Instagram hero" video business? Considering TLG's work with the HK45 I guess mostly the latter or just the mass market?

    My experience with HK was a Euro safety P7 I shot a fair bit in the early 90's and a USP 9mm I got used for a good price, just curious about the gun. Parted with both but no real complaint with the USP other than riding the thumb safety conflicted with my 1911 style (which was my problem).
    The USP series of guns uses a different recoil spring assembly (dual spring, two different plungers, each one acts independently of the other) than the HK45/P30 series of guns. The HK45/P30 uses a recoil spring assembly more like the USP Compacts; one spring and a weight/buffer.

    The USP series has a weird pogo effect that you can feel when the slide bottoms out...it does mitigate "recoil" pretty well for what it is, but there's a weird delay in both the slide bottoming out, and then starting to close that feels unnatural compared to other guns with "normal" recoil spring assemblies. I don't know if anyone's actually put it on a timer and high speed film but it wouldn't surprise me to find out it adds a 10th or so to the whole process..

    FWIW, I sold my USPs in 9 and 40 not because of that, but because the grip size and ergonomics were just wrong for me. I couldn't get through more than 5 rounds in 9 or 40 before I locked the slide open due to the massive slide release coming in contact with my support hand, and the grip was small enough so that I couldn't really get a great grip on it regardless with my off hand. I could either radically change my grip and hold the gun much lower, or sell the guns...so I sold them. The P30 with large grip panels all around doesn't have this issue with me. It also helps that the P30's slide release lever is practically tiny compared to the USP...and I can swap it out with the P30S levers which are even shorter. I can spend all day on a P30 and never accidentally lock the slide open...a welcome change of pace. I love the USP in nearly every way, it just does not fit. Sad face.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    How difficult; as in how bad are the splits? Is this percieved to be a functional problem in the context of pistol fighting or is this more of a problem for the "Instagram hero" video business? Considering TLG's work with the HK45 I guess mostly the latter or just the mass market?

    My experience with HK was a Euro safety P7 I shot a fair bit in the early 90's and a USP 9mm I got used for a good price, just curious about the gun. Parted with both but no real complaint with the USP other than riding the thumb safety conflicted with my 1911 style (which was my problem).
    The HK45 is irrelevant as doesn’t have that RSA system only the full size USPs in 9/40/45.

    Bad enough you don’t see anyone serious running USPs in USPSA or IDPA.

    The USP was the first gun designed from scratch for .40. Some would say they over engineered that RSA but subsequent HK 40s without it (USPC, P2000, and particularly the P30) all have noticeably more felt recoil than competing designs from SIG, Glock, etc.

    The USP Full size RSA does exactly what it was designed to do. While split times suffer, there is a reason the USP 45 series are the only guns I’m aware of which can handle .45 Super without modifications. There is no free lunch.

    I had a P7M8 for over a decade. The more I progressed as a shooter the more the P7 lost it’s luster. It was a great choice in 1981 but 1991 there were many better options.

    The HK pistols from the USP forward are like tanks, Russian tanks, with all the positive and negative qualities inherent in that description.

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