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Thread: Safeties.

  1. #31
    Site Supporter Elwin's Avatar
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    I’ll just add a minority opinion for the hell of it, that I like the grip safety. I have no problems deactivating a properly tuned one, I know how to tune them myself, and I like the additional layer of ND prevention for holstering AIWB. With a holster that traps the safety, me riding my thumb under the safety until it hits the holster’s detent for it, then switching my thumb so I’m both trapping the hammer and getting my hand off the grip safety, I can’t think of a safer AIWB holstering option.

    Anyone taping theirs, that’s their call, but I’d personally exhaust the tuning options first.

    I know nothing about military use, but it seems possible that those guys may be stuck with how the guns come from Colt, with armorers who are unwilling or disallowed from taking material off one of the gun’s safety devices to address an issue that some but not all of their people have with it. In that case taping it down makes sense, but it would also be another one of those areas where military practice just doesn’t apply to civilian contexts.

  2. #32
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Two major manufacturers have announced new SAOs for 2022; the S&W CSX and FN USA "High Power."

    I have not yet seen an Internet Expert to pronounce that they are dangerous because you will "forget the safety" and either shoot yourself through not engaging it, or get shot by an assailant from not disengaging it. The solution being DA/SA or Glockish with no safety to forget to manipulate. There was an old training video with that premise and I was expecting it to be revived.

    That is because internet experts like myself have zero interest in these safety equipped pistols. So there is no reason to rain on the enthusiast parade.

    I don’t have any more pistols with safeties because: I forgot to click them off when I wanted them off, I forgot
    to click them on when they needed to be on, and because sometime they didn’t deactivate themselves when they were supposed to (grip safety). I tried to train around it but still had enough of the above I just got tired of the drama.

    DAO or SFA for me.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    This discussion makes me feel old, because I remember the last time it was a big fucking deal, which I believe coincided with Reagan running for his second term. Hopefuly I won't live long enough to hear the next round.

    Now can we bury this horse?
    While I've had the same experience, I try to remind myself that not everyone....like our own RJ.... has been doing the gun thing for decades, and can benefit from the discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by ccmdfd View Post
    Recently watched a YouTube video on the Wilson Combat Channel and Mas was demonstrating some different grip techniques with some of them specifically designed to Aid with the deactivation of the grip safety. I've always grown up hearing that you have to, have to, 100% always, ride the thumb safety, or else you'll get struck by lightning. Turns out there are other techniques out there, and they've been around for a while, but just aren't talked about much anymore.
    I myself reverted back to the low thumb across platforms, after a long affair with the thumb high or straight, shortly after rereading one of Mas' scribblings on a dead tree. Felt like coming home. I guess my hand just works better that way. That it helps activate the grip safety is another bonus.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    I’m thumb safety neutral in that I believe you either train to use them all the time (which is fine) or you are better off without them.

    Using a safety equipped gun but not using the safety, or worse “sometimes” using the safety is problematic.
    Totally agree. I carried a 1911 that Uncle Pat helped me source and set up for more than half my career. I have seen many cops break thumbs in fights and it never occurred to me to "what if" BBI's scenario. I ASSumed that I would revert to WHO, given all the WHO shooting I have done and all the lefties I have coached. So I went into dry practive mode this morning and found a couple of work arounds. They suck, but probably less than being in that position without a workaround in the first place.

    I know it is controversial here, but being a young fan of @Mas and @DocGKR that it has been my personal policy for the last 30 or so years to use the manual safety on every gun that has one. Beretta 92s, S&W Third gen, even Ruger P89s. It requires practice and I have rather long thumbs, so it is literally no big deal for me. To me, choosing between a 92D and a 92G lies in the queston of "are you going to use the safety as a safety, all the time, or as a decocker, all the time?"

    Training shooters who cannot consistently reach/deactivate a (slide mounted) safety as part of the drawstroke due to physical/structural issues is another issue, and requires an exception to my rule.

    pat

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Totally agree. I carried a 1911 that Uncle Pat helped me source and set up for more than half my career. I have seen many cops break thumbs in fights and it never occurred to me to "what if" BBI's scenario. I ASSumed that I would revert to WHO, given all the WHO shooting I have done and all the lefties I have coached. So I went into dry practive mode this morning and found a couple of work arounds. They suck, but probably less than being in that position without a workaround in the first place.

    I know it is controversial here, but being a young fan of @Mas and @DocGKR that it has been my personal policy for the last 30 or so years to use the manual safety on every gun that has one. Beretta 92s, S&W Third gen, even Ruger P89s. It requires practice and I have rather long thumbs, so it is literally no big deal for me. To me, choosing between a 92D and a 92G lies in the queston of "are you going to use the safety as a safety, all the time, or as a decocker, all the time?"

    Training shooters who cannot consistently reach/deactivate a (slide mounted) safety as part of the drawstroke due to physical/structural issues is another issue, and requires an exception to my rule.

    pat
    Have you or anybody else in this thread worked on removing a pistol ambi safety using the index finger and off side lever in case the string side thumb is disabled or shot off ? I’ve done it with the Colt M4A1 and stock SCAR safeties, in fact I prefer using the index finger with the stock SCAR safety.

  6. #36
    This thread contains good info as well as food for thought. Choose a pistol for self-defense/CCW. Practice with emphasis on getting the pistol into the fight......from holster to on target. If you have a pistol with a safety, make sure that taking the safety off doesn't interfere with your secure grip on your handgun or slow you down. If the safety does interfere, consider a DAO pistol or a pistol with a DA first shot. The longer trigger pull will give a margin of safety and perhaps peace of mind.

    No matter what one carries, there are trade-offs. And some here have spoken from real life experiences. I like a safety from the standpoint of having an "oops" moment. And that safety could prevent serious injury or death. However, for me, an opinion of one, I like a longer DA pull for the first shot for CCW. I like my HK P2000 DA/SA. I can ride the hammer when holstering. Plus it has a decocker. I call it my hammer-fired Glock 19.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    That is because internet experts like myself have zero interest in these safety equipped pistols. So there is no reason to rain on the enthusiast parade.

    I don’t have any more pistols with safeties because: I forgot to click them off when I wanted them off, I forgot
    to click them on when they needed to be on, and because sometime they didn’t deactivate themselves when they were supposed to (grip safety). I tried to train around it but still had enough of the above I just got tired of the drama.

    DAO or SFA for me.
    I am comfortable carrying a safety gun while awake and up and about, regular competition makes that safety go off on the draw.
    BUT
    My "house guns" that might be snatched up out of sleep or chores are DA/SA.

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  8. #38
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem revisiting this question every few years.

    I don't carry any handguns with safeties. BBI's post represents my feelings really well: for me a thumb safety does not add safety, and adds significant risk. That's because I carry guns that have sufficiently long and/or heavy first trigger pulls: CZ P-07, Glocks with OEM triggers, Kahr p380, LCR. As well, I have had a lot of training and practice with safe holstering procedures under a variety of conditions, and do not sweep body parts when doing so. Thumbing the hammer or a SCD adds another layer of safety.

    Having one consistent manual of arms is a good idea, IMO.

    And, I still like the idea that keeping the trigger finger away from the trigger guard is a type of safety.

    During my brief affair with the 1911 as a carry gun, I had a Swenson style ambi safety break at the flimsy wedge joint that connects the sides. It locked up the gun.

    I once had a CZ thumb safety get accidentally switched on during a USPSA stage. Not good. Slide-mounted safeties are even worse in this regard. (EDIT: It's easy to imagine how a safety could be switched on during a grappling fight.)

    Grip safeties are also no-go for me. I've seen too many people (including me) fail to depress the grip safety under pressure. And don't get me started on the XD, where you can't even rack the slide to charge the gun or clear a malfunction without depressing the grip safety.

    But... I know a bunch of people I respect who swear by handguns with safeties.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 01-21-2022 at 11:20 AM.
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  9. #39
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Have you or anybody else in this thread worked on removing a pistol ambi safety using the index finger and off side lever in case the string side thumb is disabled or shot off ? I’ve done it with the Colt M4A1 and stock SCAR safeties, in fact I prefer using the index finger with the stock SCAR safety.
    Nope, but tangentially related I've swiped it off against the belt/hip similar to using the rear sight hook to chamber a round in a compromised condition. I don't feel the tactile feedback through the body of the safety swiping off so it kind of calls for a visual confirmation. Not a foolproof 1911 workaround as if the hand is so mangled the grip safety might be a problem too. But might not.
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  10. #40
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    Going back and forth between a Glock and a 1911 has never been a problem for me. When I first tried drawing a 1911 from a holster, it took about 3-4 draws to get used to deactivating the thumb safety, and it has never been an issue since. In fact, it is the gun with which I can make my fastest, most accurate first shot from a holster.

    My 1911 is a Kimber series 1. These guns originally came with grip safeties which extend out as far as a “speed bump,” but have a continuous smooth curved back surface. It is the best grip safety I have ever seen. My wife’s Springfield XD9 also has a grip safety. Neither has ever been a problem.

    Twice while carrying my 1911, I found the thumb safety had inadvertently been wiped off. I was happy to have a grip safety. I now use a holster made by Matt Del Fatti which holds the safety in the on safe position, but that holster required waiting 18 months.

    If you do not like a particular safety, use a gun that was originally designed without it. Although the likelihood of a causal relationship between deactivating a safety and whatever you are defending in court may be slim, why give a prosecutor or a plaintiff’s personal injury attorney the chance to make you look unsafe? What if deactivating the safety causes you to learn through a bad experience why it was originally included with that design?


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    Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.

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