Saw this on GB yesterday...Originally Posted by JTQ
WVSP 4566
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/922337187
Saw this on GB yesterday...
WVSP 4566
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/922337187
Those and the 5946s for NYPD and RCMP west the last 3rd gen’s supported by S&W but even that came to an end a few years ago.
Those, CHP 4006s, and the 5946s for NYPD and RCMP west the last 3rd gen’s supported by S&W but even that came to an end a few years ago.
True, but a 6920 is a 6920, an M&P is an M&P, etc. Buy enough and they'll put whatever snowflake optic cut you want on the slide, or put your department name on it, etc. But that doesn't fundamentally change what the gun is.
For Sig, it seems like the commerical guns may be built to an entirely different (inferior) standard than the guns they sell to the fed or even as part of their IOP if you're buying a specific SKU. It's like Palmetto with their different "tiers" of products, only more opaque.
You’re talking about two different things. Actually three different things.
If you think colt, Smith & Wesson, Glock etc. don’t do different things for different customers you are sadly mistaken.
Also with Colt, the days of the “one production line” and mostly in-house production went away with the GOV contract. There’s nothing wrong with the current colts but they’re not what you’re talking about anymore.
But we’ll stick with Sig in this instance. SIG has commercial guns and IOP /LE guns. That’s it unless an agency is willing to place a large enough order to justify what ever accommodations they want. Even then, those are simply going to be modified IOP guns.
SIG IOP guns Are not materially different than the commercial guns but they are subject to higher levels of quality control checks. They may also get preference for parts from certain vendors. For example when I took the Sig 320 armorers course a few years ago SIG was recommending the made in Italy magazines for duty use and they advised that IOP or agency purchase guns should come with the made in Italy magazines. I believe this is prior to check mate becoming the second American made magazine vendor.
As far as agency specific guns, the prior DHS duty guns (P229s) Were produced and supplied with the original forged machined short extractors because it was a contractual requirement. The reason it was a contractual requirement was that’s how the guns were tested in 2004 and excepting am I am long extractor guns would’ve required an expensive retest. You’re also talking about an entity which is buying tens of thousands of pistols between ICE, USSS, and the FAMS.
Regarding the DHS SKU P320, the only difference between that FCU and an IOP FCU is the coating on the internal parts. The operative factors here being that’s how the gun passed testing and if you want to buy 20,000 guns SIG will coat them in whatever you want.
Even with the special SKU and the additional SIG QC checks every P320 that hits the streets for ICE whether government issued or personally owned is reinspected by an agency armorer.
The best example of guns where there is a significant difference between commercial and LE models are the pre-bankruptcy Remington 870s.
Last edited by HCM; 01-23-2022 at 02:33 PM.
That isn't what I was driving at.
This is my concern. Even something as simple as a magazine substitution can be a source of problems if you don't know what it is. And the fact that Sig is content to quietly ship magazines they don't recommend for duty use with commercial guns is exactly what even the average schmoe should be at least a little concerned about. For a Production/CO gun, it's a mild annoyance but if you're gonna lego then you're going to have to troubleshoot anyway. For a box stock carry gun, I think that's a problem.but they are subject to higher levels of quality control checks. They may also get preference for parts from certain vendors. For example when I took the Sig 320 armorers course a few years ago SIG was recommending the made in Italy magazines for duty use and they advised that IOP or agency purchase guns should come with the made in Italy magazines.
...
The best example of guns where there is a significant difference between commercial and LE models are the pre-bankruptcy Remington 870s.
I do appreciate your insight into the 320. You have a front row seat and I'm watching this from way up in the bleachers. I also don't currently own an M&P so I'm not using that as an example out of fanboy devotion. It's just that I'm not aware of S&W shipping hobby-grade M&Ps to the commercial market in significant quantity while LE gets shit that was put together by an adult. If they were to start, I'd want to be aware of that too. Who wouldn't?
I think if the made in Italy vendor could supply all of six mags they probably would’ve stuck with those. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that around that time Sigg started using checkmate as a second US mag vendor. I’ve had six of the checkmate made legion mags Which I use as training mags. They have seen the majority of the 10,000 rounds I have between a pair of P320s And I have seen zero magazine related issues with them. The two different US mag suppliers have been discussed in another thread, the checkmates have a “C” marking on them the other vendor has a “J” marking I don’t know if we’ve ever determined for sure who the other US mag vendor is.
I don’t think you’ll find many companies that truly have a separate production line for LE guns. It’s more a matter of building guns in batches and when they are building batches of IOP or agency specific guns that means today we are using X parts or magazines But the same people are building those guns. With those guns usually do get is extra QC checks. For example years ago I was told that Glock blue label guns supposedly get six extra QC checks but they were otherwise identical to commercial guns.
An example of this would be an AR manufacturer which uses bolts that have been magnetic particle inspected and high-pressure tested in duty guns whereas their commercial bolts might come from the same source but not get those extra checks Because it cost money.
The people who want that extra QC are going to buy a colt, BCM, sons of liberty etc. instead of a rock river or a bushmaster.
Last edited by HCM; 01-23-2022 at 03:29 PM.
I owned 3 or 4 FN's and each had a magazine idiosyncrasy dictating strict adherence to angle of insertion. The ads said one thing, but the pistols were dullards. I figured out that they were designed by committee in an organization that didn't tolerate feedback from underlings. I will be surprised if armorers can repair them even if they do have a parts kit.
I shot this version at the LVMPD range last week (Monday of SHOT Show week). ProForce has a copy waiting for us to try. It was fantastic, shot it alongside the new M&P flat trigger and G19.
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The FN rep for the LAPD gun told me the trigger is an LAPD design spec worked over a few iterations to what it is on this version. Quite possible LAPD took APEX attributes into account.
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