Why BUIS?

[UNM1136]

Suspenders and belt.

What has evolved over the last few years is what I need in a BUIS...for the last 15 years I have had a fixed front on my patrol rifle, and a folding rear. All thst time I have run an Aimpoint. I am required to shoot an annual qual course with some of the shooting done irons only. A few years back I got a three pack of shitty batteries from Amazon, and dot failures were common. Now I am looking at LPVOs and magnifiers and am no longer certain that fixed front is the way to go. And I have been running lasers for years. For the rifle I am ready to go Magpul flip ups.

In the last 24+ years I have had irons fail. In my academy in '98 a brand new Sig P229 launched the right tritium dial from its rear sight. I have seen that twice more. I have seen Glock fronts shear, Trijicon Ghost Ring front sight fly off a shotgun more than once, and recently learned that some gun cleaning chemicals when combined with heat from strings of fire can soften red Locktite to the point that my Glock's front sight screw lostened and my front sight was wiggling like a six year old's tooth.

After four years of running suppressor height irons with an RMR I am looking at the P-2, and whether I change optics or not I am looking for a lower 1/4 cowitness or lower. Dawson will be able to hook me up with the exact right sights, once I figure out exactly what height I want. I want them out of the way until I want to see them. I am even toying with going all black and serrated, rather than FO front (first choice) or tritium.

As BBI pointed out not all dot failures are battery or electronics. Lighting and environment can be issues, too. I have run lasers on my duty pistols for a long, long time. I want all three sighting options in place and available.

pat

[Lon]

The more I think about this topic, I would say this - I believe a secondary sighting system is a must for a serious use weapon system. I choose to use BUIS most of the time, but I’ve also used an RMR as a secondary sighting system to a LPVO.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

As someone who just bought a 1.93" Geissele Mount for the Aimpoint Micro, I didn't think about whether this would allow for BUIS on the rifle. Anybody know if it's a problem and how to solve it?

[DpdG]

As someone who just bought a 1.93" Geissele Mount for the Aimpoint Micro, I didn't think about whether this would allow for BUIS on the rifle. Anybody know if it's a problem and how to solve it?

Pretty sure offset irons will be your only option. 1.93” generally puts the mount/optic interface right in line with the sight plane for most normal irons.

[Lon]

As someone who just bought a 1.93" Geissele Mount for the Aimpoint Micro, I didn't think about whether this would allow for BUIS on the rifle. Anybody know if it's a problem and how to solve it?

One of my SWAT guys uses this:
https://www.unitytactical.com/product/fast-micro-mount/

[farscott]

While I lack the experience of many other people with RDS, my answer for handguns is a bit different than for rifles. For handguns, my experience has been that RDS are much more likely to fail than on a rifle, necessitating BUIS for handguns. On a rifle, I tend to look at the RDS as the backup and the irons as my primary. That view is colored by my shooting more M1 Garand than AR, shooting at longer distances where the irons shine, the issues with mounting a RDS on a Garand, and the ease of shooting the Garand sights as long as the light is decent. If I used ARs more, my answer would likely change.

[Sanch]

For what it’s worth, I’m willing to consider defensive handguns without BUIS due to the limited range. Long guns are a much harder sell for me.

I’m the opposite. No way I’d run a red dot equipped handgun without BUIS. I feel like a red dot on a handgun is far more likely to break or die than a red dot on a carbine. If only because carbine-based aimpoint are more mature. I found a 14 year old aimpoint in my storage box. Had a battery that expired 8 years ago. Still powered on.

How many posts have there been about aimpoint acro p1 batteries dying in a few months?

If I get into an entangled fight, I’m more likely to drop a handgun on the concrete, red dot first, than a carbine. First, far less likely to “drop” the carbine because it’s a two handed weapon so It’s easier to retain. And there’s a sling. Second, if you drop a carbine, there’s more surface for it to land on compared to a red dot handgun.

Also if I needed to shoot one or the other without a red dot, the carbine offers more points of contact for kinesthetic alignment relative to a handgun, to help me shoot looking through the empty tube as a giant ghost ring.

And maybe I’m skewed because you’re answer is handguns are a closer range tool. Which is true, but personally I don’t see the need to ever arise for me to shoot someone at 200 yards with a red dot equipped carbine.

That said, I want BUIS on both my handguns and carbines, except tiny PDW carbines where it would interfere with gripping the foreend.

As far as Pat’s idea of green lasers, I mean, I guess if you’re running a laser anyway because you’re in a team environment and want a laser for non verbal comms, or if you’re running pro-masks, but most civilians shouldn’t bother with lasers unless you’re running NODs. And I wouldn’t trust a laser as my backup site. Batteries and electronics can die there too and as mentioned, it’s hard to see outside in sunlight.

[beenalongtime]

To avoid some bad thread drift on another topic, I thought I'd throw up a potential "burn the witch" question for @awp_101:

What are the reasons, excuses and justifications for having back up iron sights (BUIS) on optics equipped duty weapons (including carbines)?

Some thoughts about this were: fighting guns have always had iron sights, using iron sights to learn optics (a really bad, horrible training concept), use iron sights if optic fails (doesn't happen in extremis events) and the one I feel is the actual reason (and a good one) - if the optic dies, gets damaged, etc., we can remove it and keep the weapon in service.

Fire away.

Seems to me you asked and answered your own question.
Duty weapon, means you have other people depending on you. You may not have time to remove the optic, WHEN it breaks.

[UNM1136]

One of my SWAT guys uses this:
https://www.unitytactical.com/product/fast-micro-mount/

I exclusively use LaRue QD mounts on my long gun. But Uncle Pat taught us to use the optic as a ghost ring rear with a front post....

pat

[DpdG]

I exclusively use LaRue QD mounts on my long gun. But Uncle Pat taught us to use the optic as a ghost ring rear with a front post....

pat

With absolute height, that technique works. Lower 1/3- kinda works but less so. Greater than ~1.70- not possible. The Unity is 2.26” and literally has a rear sight (and technically can take a front post as well) under the optic. It’s essentially like mounting the optic on top of the carry handle.