Why BUIS?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Intriguing.

We didn't have back up sights when we just had irons. I've seen more than M16A1s, A2s, and M4s have unexpected yet significant damage to the front sights. The expectation was going to be that you'd work through it.

I've had rear sights come loose on pistol slides and have seen front sights depart pistol slides & shotgun barrels under recoil. Again, without BUIS.

And yet, I broke enough early pistol dots that I want some other way to stay involved in solving the problem. Absent the optic completely departing the gun, I think there are enough ways to stay involved if the PMO fails. Those methods all came from concerns about the dot failing.

[RevolverRob]

I brought up this very topic years ago. And my thinking hasn't changed much...

If my optic is hard mounted to the gun (i.e., pistol optic), I want a front sight that can be seen through the glass. And that I can index off some portion of the optic. Pistol optics are still too middling in reliability for me to trust. Since, if I go to a pistol, you can be sure I don't have a long gun available, this matters to me.

On a PDW, rifle, or shotgun? Don't care. Because I have a pistol. Optic shits the bed, to the pistol or use the window of my optic.

My "engagement" distances are measured in, "Minute of across the room or front lawn." A person standing <30y from me will fill a good portion of my optic window and get holes into them.

That said, on a duty weapon riding in a cop car or MRAP? Folding irons that co-witness with the optic. If running an LPVO, offset MRDS. If running a shotgun a co-witness set of ghost rings. Things have a tendency to get beat up by cops and soldiers. Me? My little Rattler PDW and pistol are clean, freshly lubed, with fresh batteries in their lights and optics. Chances of my shit getting broken moving from my carpet-lined gunsafe to my backpack and back are pretty low.

[willie]

I have irons on all weapons but would change that if I were younger. I do have this point to make. From my chair at the lgs I see guys of varying ability installing mediocre dots on HK's, Glocks, and other quality handguns. I hope that lurkers and surfers reading the thread realize that what you got might quit working depending on a number of variables. To me it makes more sense to break the bank buying a 1st class optic than spending a ton of money on the pistol and then then putting a so-so dot on it.

[Tokarev]

The Swedes apparently do not think BUIS are a necessity on their AK4s.



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[DpdG]

The Swedes apparently do not think BUIS are a necessity on their AK4s.



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True, although the Spuhr stock makes the OE irons nigh unusable due to the vastly raised comb height. Traded greater recoil control and optics utilization for irons compatibility. Also using absolute top shelf optics in either Hensolt (older design but pretty bomb-proof) or Aimpoint.

[gato naranja]

I brought up this very topic years ago. And my thinking hasn't changed much...

If my optic is hard mounted to the gun (i.e., pistol optic), I want a front sight that can be seen through the glass. And that I can index off some portion of the optic. Pistol optics are still too middling in reliability for me to trust. Since, if I go to a pistol, you can be sure I don't have a long gun available, this matters to me.

On a PDW, rifle, or shotgun? Don't care. Because I have a pistol. Optic shits the bed, to the pistol or use the window of my optic.

My "engagement" distances are measured in, "Minute of across the room or front lawn." A person standing <30y from me will fill a good portion of my optic window and get holes into them.

That said, on a duty weapon riding in a cop car or MRAP? Folding irons that co-witness with the optic. If running an LPVO, offset MRDS. If running a shotgun a co-witness set of ghost rings. Things have a tendency to get beat up by cops and soldiers. Me? My little Rattler PDW and pistol are clean, freshly lubed, with fresh batteries in their lights and optics. Chances of my shit getting broken moving from my carpet-lined gunsafe to my backpack and back are pretty low.

This seems to be a reasonable response to the question. I might disagree on small details as they pertain to my own specific situation(s), but "one size fits everything" vis-a-vis BUIS isn't any more likely than the "one gun for everything" does. A half century of of seeing optics of all kinds go to hell has made me (perhaps illogically) wary of not having some sort of contingency plan, and it would probably take another forty-five years of really improved optics for me to think differently.

The only non-ironsighted firearm I have owned since "Gato Naranja's Great Obscure Ammunition and Pointless Firearm Purge" isn't even a firearm: it's a Weihrauch HW30S Deluxe air rifle with a Leupold 3-9X22 AO. The shadow of its front iron sight was problematic when the objective was cranked for close distances, and it had to go. This is one situation where if the optic fails, there is no consequence other than me having to buy a new optic at my leisure.

[Tokarev]

Frank Proctor's view from a few years back:

https://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/1...nk-proctor-16/

[RevolverRob]

Frank Proctor's view from a few years back:

https://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/1...nk-proctor-16/

I tend to agree with him. But we have had multiple folks note optics failures right here in this thread. Just because he hasn't seen it doesn't make it real.

Also, a note on the optics Proctor was running. An ACOG - probably the most robust combat optic out there. And a SpecterDR, the second most bomb proof optic out there. In both cases, those optics have etched reticles. And in the case of the Specter, vestigial, but still present, iron sights on top of the optic.

Anyone notice the cost of the optics here? Willie is probably onto something regarding breaking the bank on your optic...

[Nephrology]

I think they can make sense on a red-dot equipped carbine, where you can quickly deploy irons and use them through the optic tube/screen.

They make a lot less sense on rifles with magnified optics, including LPVOs (speaking as someone guilty of owning 2 guns with LPVOs and irons...). Offset mRDS or ntothing at all makes a lot more sense on these guns IMO.

On handguns I feel like they are still necessary given the state of modern handgun optics but that may be changing.

[tlong17]

Carbine with 1.93” or higher optic, I still like to have BUIS and use a relatively QD mount (Scalarworks). But I’m also just a Joe civilian and don’t have lasers and shit on it.

On a concealed pistol, I’m Ok not having any BUIS as I feel comfortable using the shroud of the optic guillotine method or using the backplate if the optic is gone. If I have to make a tight shot at distance I’ll just accept the limits of my accuracy and adapt accordingly. That said, it’s pretty easy to have BUIS these days, even on accident.

If I had to carry a pistol in a holster all day, BUIS would be a must for me so that I can still make a longer shot if needed.