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Thread: Why BUIS?

  1. #11
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    I am reminded of an article by the late & great Pat Rogers in SWAT Magazine. He argued (persuasively) that carbine dots were sufficiently mature that the irons were no longer necessary, and that if the dot went down, the best backup would be a green laser.

    Without having the substantial background of the membership here, I tend to concur with that article. When the What Would Stoner Do (WWSD) projects occurred in 2017 & 2020, iron sights were intentionally deleted. The argument was that they were unnecessary anyway, and that removing the BUIS opened up more rail space for IR/NV and other electro-optics or other add-ons.

    There may also be merit in considering exactly what sort of optics match with exactly what sort of back-ups. Without a QD mount, folding BUIS seem contra-indicated on a scoped gun. I handled a dot-equipped 10.3" AR at a class last weekend that had the dot on a 1.93" mount, and a fixed front sight. There was a hole in the mount that could be used as a sight. I'm waiting on getting a 16" PCC built, and I have the JP offset irons on it, mounted at 45 degrees, with a TLR-2AG ahead of the irons. I know that I'll have to shoot hard leans, and I'm curious to see how this whole thing will act. I will note that the JP offset irons seem a good bit heavier, and are bulkier, than any reasonable RDS.

    When I first decided to get into pistol dots, I thought that I wanted the irons to absolute co-witness with the dot, and now I have a tritium standard high front for like a "lower-1/10th" co-witness. I just loved the screen and the visibility, and I'm satisfied with the durability and battery life of the existing options. I do have a TLR-8AG on the pistols, and there was a class last fall that was some weird and awkward position, and rather than trying to get behind the glass, I just hit the light/laser, and went that way. If the dot goes down, I'll do the same.

    Of course, this entire plan does become very battery dependent.
    Per the PF Code of Conduct, I have a commercial interest in the StreakTM product as sold by Ammo, Inc.

  2. #12
    Aside from having flip-up or otherwise sights that are visible through a dead battery optic; what about BUIS on a carbine equipped with an LVPO or some other prism or magnification optic?

    Does something like an ACOG, which is probably as durable as anything of this type can be, necessitate the addition of BUIS? Aside from mounting in a carrying handle with a mount that allows some view of the iron sights, some sort of 45° option is about all you've got.

    Some ACOGs come with built-in BUIS but these get knocked off accidentally through use and abuse probably far more often than the ACOG actually failing....



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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    I am reminded of an article by the late & great Pat Rogers in SWAT Magazine. He argued (persuasively) that carbine dots were sufficiently mature that the irons were no longer necessary, and that if the dot went down, the best backup would be a green laser.
    I could see a class 3B green laser being usable out to like 15 yards on a bright sunny day; a class 3R, you'd be lucky to get out to 5 yards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    When the What Would Stoner Do (WWSD) projects occurred in 2017 & 2020, iron sights were intentionally deleted. The argument was that they were unnecessary anyway, and that removing the BUIS opened up more rail space for IR/NV and other electro-optics or other add-ons.
    I don't see how removing BUIS would give you all that much rail space outside of PDWs. It's not like BUIS take up very much rail space to begin with; since these are BUIS, it's not like you're forced to try to maximize sight radius, so just put the irons where ever they fit. Ultimately, they'll still give you more frame of reference than a laser dot you can't see or no sights at all, and most likely can still provide better precision than using the dead optic as a giant ghost ring (which wouldn't work if the optic was occluded anyway, and you had to ditch it). That's how I've added BUIS to my 11.5" that has an MFAL and the giant Unity Tactical TAPS tapeswitch, along with a riser and magnifier:


    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    Does something like an ACOG, which is probably as durable as anything of this type can be, necessitate the addition of BUIS? Aside from mounting in a carrying handle with a mount that allows some view of the iron sights, some sort of 45° option is about all you've got.
    I don't see why not; optic usability extends beyond whether or not the optic itself is functioning. A fogged up optic due to moving from one temperature extreme to another is something to consider; yeah, you can wipe usually, but sometimes you just can't, e.g., moving from a heated interior into an extremely cold exterior, enough that the condensation can freeze.

  4. #14
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    Serious question for RDS equipped long guns - are offset irons practical, or for gaming only? I’ve never really thought about them.
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...
    revchuck38: ...”mo' ammo is mo' betta' unless you're swimming or on fire.”

  5. #15
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    because I hate driving all the way to the range, all keyed up to get to shoot, only to find out upon arrival that the battery in my optic has shit the bed in the 5 years since I shot the gun and I have to just turn around and drive the hour home again...
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyDuty View Post
    Serious question for RDS equipped long guns - are offset irons practical, or for gaming only? I’ve never really thought about them.
    Offset irons or RDS with a magnified optic are very practical but require lots of training to feel "natural". I tend to prefer top mounted/piggybacked backup RDS to a magged optic for close range myself, but I've ended up going back to a red dot and magnfier.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Even good RDS shit the bed, like my T1 did on a SWAT op when bad guy was trying to turn a neighborhood into Fallujah. Not a dead battery, a dead optic. Finished the op w irons.

    BUIS aren’t optional for me.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
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  8. #18
    still remembers america blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Even good RDS shit the bed, like my T1 did on a SWAT op when bad guy was trying to turn a neighborhood into Fallujah. Not a dead battery, a dead optic. Finished the op w irons.

    BUIS aren’t optional for me.
    Thank you.
    There's nothing civil about this war

  9. #19
    Site Supporter PNWTO's Avatar
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    For duty use, especially in a field environment where logistics aren’t a surety (MIL), why not? Especially because an organization is probably paying for it. My overseas time had a few individuals revert to putting their carry handles back on since the ACOGs that were found unserviceable weren’t going to be replaced anytime soon.

    For the “normal earth people” I don’t think the necessity exists, although the “want” may; just my opinion. Nothing wrong with the “want” either, I just can’t create an event where they fit in aside from ruining an opportunity at a range or class.

    The above sentiment is for carbines although there’s enough evidence of folks using a dead RMR frame to hit B/C at 25 yards that I feel the actual “necessity” for pistols may be similar.

    Circling back to the beginning of my post, probably a necessity for folks with professional needs.
    "Do nothing which is of no use." -Musashi

    What would TR do? TRCP BHA

  10. #20
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    For what it’s worth, I’m willing to consider defensive handguns without BUIS due to the limited range. Long guns are a much harder sell for me.
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...
    revchuck38: ...”mo' ammo is mo' betta' unless you're swimming or on fire.”

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