Pretty sure it's not a flinch

[CCT125US]

Looking for some advice.

Currently working on the No Fail. (B8, 25 yard, D1 under 3.5 seconds, x10) Having trouble with sending shots low. Not low left, but to the 6 o'clock. Dryfire isn't helping because I know I won't get a bang. Doing ball and dummy on the range, reveals what I believe is a timing issue. I am driving shots low, as I am out of time with the expected recoil. Pre ignition vs post, what some might call a flinch.

My procedure is to load 4 mags with 1 round each (due to weight), and add a dummy round to 3 of them. This gives me a 75% chance of getting a click. Mag is reset, placed in a dump pouch and randomly drawn. When I do hit the live round, I shoot a 10 or x. The dummies give an acceptable level of movement within the black. When I know I have live ammo, I drive the gun low on occasion. This is frustrating as I can shoot 95+ slowfire. When I add in speed, and par, I attempt to compensate. Tips and advice would be appreciated.

This is with a subcompact, iron sighted gun. I know I am not asking too much of the gun, because accuracy is there and I typically shoot just under 3 seconds. Do I need to mentally take that extra time?

The really frustrating thing is I had several range sessions where I couldn't miss the black and was hitting sub 2. I know it's possibly, i just can't currently seem to pull it together.

[GJM]

Two thoughts:

With ball and dummy per Bill Rogers, load the dummy rounds so you know where they are, ideally alternating ball and dummy, so you know it is a dummy and get a perfect press.

Lately, I have been working on draws to low prob targets in min time. What seems to be working it to bring the dot up from below, making the shot as the dot crosses into the scoring zone, to avoid the "right now" problem where you crush the trigger.

[CCT125US]

So you're using approach shooting, interesting. I have found it works well on small moving game with my carry gun.

[Clusterfrack]

@CCT125US, in my opinion pushing down on the gun is the main reason fairly experienced shooters have big misses. So you are in good company. Ball and dummy can help diagnose, but I do not find that it will solve the problem. Here's why: if you are shooting multiple shots with reasonably fast splits, you have to return the gun. As you shoot faster splits, you have to predict when to return the gun. Pushing down on the gun before (or as) it fires is a timing problem. And it's one that I do not believe ever goes entirely away, no matter how skilled the shooter.

A couple years ago I worked really hard to minimize this issue, and I'll describe what I did here.

1. Learn to "turn off" automatic return of the gun. Hwansik Kim has a great drill called Measurement Drill where you fire a shot and let the gun stay aimed up where it recoils. Then you fire another shot to measure how well your grip and stance control flip of the gun. That drill helped me a lot because it's about NOT returning the gun. Now when I shoot steel or very tight shots, I've learned to just let the gun stay up and return it "later". (Note: later is ~ 0.5s.)

2. Minimize the amount of muscle you need to use to return the gun precisely. This is the really deep rabbit hole--maybe the deepest in shooting. Grip, wrists, arms, shoulders, and stance all factor into this. The gun has to recoil, but you can make returning it very subtle. Trying to eliminate muzzle flip is not necessary or desirable. 13 year old girl GMs do this really well, so you don't have to try to be a monster. You can burn a LOT of ammo trying to figure this out.

3. Recognize when a timing issue is happening. I can feel it coming on sometimes when I'm shooting groups--especially weak hand only-- and can often stop the push.

4. Shoot different guns. Since recoil, timing, and weight will be different, you are forced to adjust how you return the gun.

Good luck. I hope this helps. Keep us posted on your progress!

EDIT: @GJM's post is a good one. He's addressing a possible trigger issue, separate from what I described here.

[GJM]

So you're using approach shooting, interesting. I have found it works well on small moving game with my carry gun.

Yes, from below on shot one, and from above in recoil on subsequent shots.

[Archer1440]

This ISSF PDF material might not “fit” the way we all shoot, being oriented to Olympic pistol, but there are a number of things to consider in this content that absolutely directly apply to aspects of what is being discussed here.

Pay attention to the segments on sight alignment, and the ocular/brain stuff. It absolutely applies to some degree- and not just to pistol shooting.

https://www.issf-sports.org/getfile....l_shooting.pdf

[Doc_Glock]

@CCT125US, in my opinion pushing down on the gun is the main reason fairly experienced shooters have big misses. So you are in good company. Ball and dummy can help diagnose, but I do not find that it will solve the problem. Here's why: if you are shooting multiple shots with reasonably fast splits, you have to return the gun. As you shoot faster splits, you have to predict when to return the gun. Pushing down on the gun before (or as) it fires is a timing problem. And it's one that I do not believe ever goes entirely away, no matter how skilled the shooter.

A couple years ago I worked really hard to minimize this issue, and I'll describe what I did here.

1. Learn to "turn off" automatic return of the gun. Hwansik Kim has a great drill called Measurement Drill where you fire a shot and let the gun stay aimed up where it recoils. Then you fire another shot to measure how well your grip and stance control flip of the gun. That drill helped me a lot because it's about NOT returning the gun. Now when I shoot steel or very tight shots, I've learned to just let the gun stay up and return it "later". (Note: later is ~ 0.5s.)

2. Minimize the amount of muscle you need to use to return the gun precisely. This is the really deep rabbit hole--maybe the deepest in shooting. Grip, wrists, arms, shoulders, and stance all factor into this. The gun has to recoil, but you can make returning it very subtle. Trying to eliminate muzzle flip is not necessary or desirable. 13 year old girl GMs do this really well, so you don't have to try to be a monster. You can burn a LOT of ammo trying to figure this out.

3. Recognize when a timing issue is happening. I can feel it coming on sometimes when I'm shooting groups--especially weak hand only-- and can often stop the push.

4. Shoot different guns. Since recoil, timing, and weight will be different, you are forced to adjust how you return the gun.

Good luck. I hope this helps. Keep us posted on your progress!

EDIT: @GJM's post is a good one. He's addressing a possible trigger issue, separate from what I described here.

This is an incredible and very insightful post.

[GJM]

TGO is a friend. Another friend got to practice with him last week and this week. He offered that Rob returns the pistol in recoil so quickly, he has more time available to aim and shoot great points. He also mentioned that while Rob might mess around on some runs, whenever it was declared "this is the run for score," he could consistently put down his best run.

[Controlledpairs2]

@CCT125US, in my opinion pushing down on the gun is the main reason fairly experienced shooters have big misses. So you are in good company. Ball and dummy can help diagnose, but I do not find that it will solve the problem. Here's why: if you are shooting multiple shots with reasonably fast splits, you have to return the gun. As you shoot faster splits, you have to predict when to return the gun. Pushing down on the gun before (or as) it fires is a timing problem. And it's one that I do not believe ever goes entirely away, no matter how skilled the shooter.

A couple years ago I worked really hard to minimize this issue, and I'll describe what I did here.

1. Learn to "turn off" automatic return of the gun. Hwansik Kim has a great drill called Measurement Drill where you fire a shot and let the gun stay aimed up where it recoils. Then you fire another shot to measure how well your grip and stance control flip of the gun. That drill helped me a lot because it's about NOT returning the gun. Now when I shoot steel or very tight shots, I've learned to just let the gun stay up and return it "later". (Note: later is ~ 0.5s.)

2. Minimize the amount of muscle you need to use to return the gun precisely. This is the really deep rabbit hole--maybe the deepest in shooting. Grip, wrists, arms, shoulders, and stance all factor into this. The gun has to recoil, but you can make returning it very subtle. Trying to eliminate muzzle flip is not necessary or desirable. 13 year old girl GMs do this really well, so you don't have to try to be a monster. You can burn a LOT of ammo trying to figure this out.

3. Recognize when a timing issue is happening. I can feel it coming on sometimes when I'm shooting groups--especially weak hand only-- and can often stop the push.

4. Shoot different guns. Since recoil, timing, and weight will be different, you are forced to adjust how you return the gun.

Good luck. I hope this helps. Keep us posted on your progress!

EDIT: @GJM's post is a good one. He's addressing a possible trigger issue, separate from what I described here.

This post just switched on several light bulbs in my brain-house. Thank you.

[CCT125US]

Alright, progress has been made. The idea of approach shooting is not new to me, but it helps to define what is being done. I've often applied it to moving critters. Never really thought of applying it to a single stationary target, such as a B8.

Curious what @P.E. Kelley would say about this. He brought it up in the below thread regarding rifles.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-Shooting-Info

Here are my results over the past several days. First and only shot of the day, cold, repeated 3 days.
P2000sk LEM