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Thread: Federal's newish .30 Super, aka a 'spicier' 7.65x20mm Longue

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mac View Post
    The boss annoyed me in the first 10 seconds here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cZTgkrfAP8

    It's not "9mm performance" (although nudging near it), and it sure as hell is not going to work in a ".380-sized gun"*! It's just a way to squeeze a few more rounds of what looks to be a reasonably effective cartridge into a 9mm-sized gun.



    *Unless one considers that today's small 9mms are smaller than .380s of 25 years ago.
    This is Federals thesis on the 30SC and its reasoning:

    https://www.federalpremium.com/30sup...-goes-big.html

    A couple interesting takeaways:

    "When fired with a 3.5-inch barrel through FBI bare gel protocol, the .312-inch-diameter, 100-grain 30 Super Carry HST expands to .590 inch and penetrates 12 inches, while the 124-grain 9mm Luger HST expands to .650 inch and penetrates 13.1 inches. In the FBIís heavy clothing protocol, the same 30 Super Carry HST expands to .530 inch and penetrates 15.5 inches; the 9mm Luger expands to .571 inch and penetrates 14.5 inches.

    Look for additional brands to offer new 30 Super Carry pistols in 2022. Eventually models with 30 Super Carry specific frames will arrive, which will reduce the pistolís footprint.

    The 30 Super Carry is not currently within the parameters required for USPSA (below minimum diameter) and cannot be used in official competitions at this time. In the future, expect more target ammunition offerings priced roughly the same as comparable 380 Auto loads as competitive shooters embrace the cartridge.

    For starters, much of the demand thatís fueled ammunition scarcity is coming from Americaís more than 12 million new gun owners, with 2020 and 2021 being the top years for gun sales on record. Many of those newcomers are looking for a self-defense pistol and the 30 Super Carry is an ideal choice, especially since it could be built on smaller, lighter pistol frames than 9mm without generating recoil or muzzle blast at levels that might intimidate new shooters."


    This sounds like Federal believes / knows that future pistols will be made going forward that pair a 3.5" barrel length with a smaller then 9mm frame purpose made for 30SC. So perhaps they see the future as something ~G42 sized in 30SC with 10rd mags? The two mentions of 'smaller frames then 9mm' makes that seem like what they are expecting.

    It also seems to suggest that Federal will be putting the arm on the competition shooting rulebooks to allow 30SC as a competition cartridge. Thats unrelated to the 380 marketing but sure is interesting.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by spyderco monkey View Post
    This sounds like Federal believes / knows that future pistols will be made going forward that pair a 3.5" barrel length with a smaller then 9mm frame purpose made for 30SC. So perhaps they see the future as something ~G42 sized in 30SC with 10rd mags? The two mentions of 'smaller frames then 9mm' makes that seem like what they are expecting.
    I'm calling it BS marketing hype until I see some engineering wizardry. A frame narrower than a 9mm would not allow increased capacity over a 9mm, unless you're comparing single-column guns.

    Using G42/43 as an example, the grip frame on the 42 is too small for the OAL of .30 SC. If you kept the overall dimensions of the G42 with a deeper grip frame front to back, you'd probably get 8 rounds of .30 SC in it. Might be interesting...

    Chambering a G43-equivalent model in .30 SC would probably give you an 8-round flush mag, which wouldn't be a bad deal, really. A better deal would be slightly widening the ass end of the 43 to match the 43X -- that gun in 9mm could have an 8-rd flush mag, and take 10-rd 43X mags. In .30 SC it could have a 10-rd flush mag.

    My point is, this cartridge will never fit in guns the size of today's .380s, and if you slimmed the receiver of today's small 9mms, you're merely getting a slimmer gun in .30 SC with the same capacity as a slightly thicker 9mm.

  3. #123
    The 30 Super Carry is not currently within the parameters required for USPSA (below minimum diameter) and cannot be used in official competitions at this time. In the future, expect more target ammunition offerings priced roughly the same as comparable 380 Auto loads as competitive shooters embrace the cartridge.
    So what competitors? Do they think they can scmooze USPSA or IDPA into reducing minimum caliber?
    Sr Penna and STI couldn't recruit IPSC for the 7mm.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mac View Post
    I'm calling it BS marketing hype until I see some engineering wizardry. A frame narrower than a 9mm would not allow increased capacity over a 9mm, unless you're comparing single-column guns.

    My point is, this cartridge will never fit in guns the size of today's .380s, and if you slimmed the receiver of today's small 9mms, you're merely getting a slimmer gun in .30 SC with the same capacity as a slightly thicker 9mm.
    This is from Federals patent on 8mm/30SC.

    So they do believe they will be able to both create slimmer frames and increase capacity.



    KelTecs P15 suggests whats possible; they've gotten 9x19 double stack into a 14oz 0.875" thick pistol. So it should be possible to create a .875" or less thickness 30SC in the future.

    The Glock 42 has a .83" thick slide thickness and is 13.76oz, so not much of a stretch to go that size with .30 SC based on the above, albeit with a wider front to back grip to cover the 9x19 COL of the 30SC.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    So what competitors? Do they think they can scmooze USPSA or IDPA into reducing minimum caliber?
    Sr Penna and STI couldn't recruit IPSC for the 7mm.
    Thats exactly my take - they're going to try to convince the major rulebooks to allow 30SC. Which frankly doesn't seem unreasonable so long as it makes a given power factor.

    Federal is a majorrrrr player in the market, way beyond STI/Penna, so I wouldn't bet against them. Especially as many competition pistol manufacturers will also relish the opportunity to sell a whole new line of guns.

  6. #126
    A 115 at 1150 is f 132, same as 9mm econoball, comfortably Minor, but already at such high pressure as to put Major out of reach.

    So the selling point would be higher capacity in specified length magazines.
    That would be aN advantage in USPSA CO.
    But where else? We are told that Limited Minor is not competitive.

    A narrower butt is not of much importance in USPSA. Stacking geometry simplified* above means a CZ would likely just get internal magazine ribs to get a .30 double stack in a 9mm magazine well.

    *Simplified, they do not show the taper down to the center feed of a real magazine.
    Last edited by Jim Watson; 01-25-2022 at 11:43 PM.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by spyderco monkey View Post
    This is from Federals patent on 8mm/30SC.

    So they do believe they will be able to both create slimmer frames and increase capacity.



    KelTecs P15 suggests whats possible; they've gotten 9x19 double stack into a 14oz 0.875" thick pistol. So it should be possible to create a .875" or less thickness 30SC in the future.

    The Glock 42 has a .83" thick slide thickness and is 13.76oz, so not much of a stretch to go that size with .30 SC based on the above, albeit with a wider front to back grip to cover the 9x19 COL of the 30SC.
    Interesting, thanks -- I had glanced at the patent but not paid close enough attention. A G42 equivalent that is a true double-stack .30 SC would be a compelling pocket gun. Could be a mite snappy, but I'm mostly oblivious to recoil.

    It occurs to me that "8mm Super" (or "8mm Federal"?) would have been a better name than ".30 Super Carry"...

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mac View Post
    Interesting, thanks -- I had glanced at the patent but not paid close enough attention. A G42 equivalent that is a true double-stack .30 SC would be a compelling pocket gun. Could be a mite snappy, but I'm mostly oblivious to recoil.

    It occurs to me that "8mm Super" (or "8mm Federal"?) would have been a better name than ".30 Super Carry"...
    Yeah, a 10+1 14oz pocket pistol in 30SC would garner a lot of interest. Grip slimness they will have if manufacturers step up to the plate, the big question to me is how slim/light they will be able to go with the slide with 30SC. I think going 0.75" ala LCP will be impossible, but getting down to G42 0.83" may be a possibility.

    In terms of name, I completely agree - '30 Super Carry' is a terrible, gimmicky name. '8mm Auto' would have been my preference, with 8mm Federal and 8mm Super tied, and .327 Auto pulling up the rear.

    .30 Super Cary sucks in that a) its not .30 b) it seems to psychologically cancel the cartridge from either duty or competition use, seeming to shoehorn it strictly into a CCW market.

    The 8mm ad copy writes itself too. '8mm is the new 9mm' showing similar ballistics with more mag capacity.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    A 115 at 1150 is f 132, same as 9mm econoball, comfortably Minor, but already at such high pressure as to put Major out of reach.

    So the selling point would be higher capacity in specified length magazines.
    That would be aN advantage in USPSA CO.
    But where else? We are told that Limited Minor is not competitive.

    A narrower butt is not of much importance in USPSA. Stacking geometry simplified* above means a CZ would likely just get internal magazine ribs to get a .30 double stack in a 9mm magazine well.

    *Simplified, they do not show the taper down to the center feed of a real magazine.
    I'm not sure where its niche would be in competition, just that it seems like Federal believes it has a future in competition based on their 30sc thesis.

    A 140mm magazine should hold 25-26rds, so thats something. If theres a competition that allows Minor PF but allows compensators, thats where it would shine, as it could be loaded to Minor but with enough pressure to make good use of a compensator. Thats also where I see it shining in a carry gun - in sort of mini Roland special type pistols.

  10. #130
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    "380 size gun", what a load of BS fron the Federal tech guys... I know it is a commercial, but it must be difficult to keep a straight face

    This ammo has the same recoil impulse of a 9mm, and in a conventional recoil operated pistol NEEDS the same recoiling mass (barrel + slide). End of story.

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