Trigger reach and acceptable grip

[tlong17]

I’ve been shooting 92s and PX4’s for about a year now. Only shot strikers before that.

I’ve really enjoyed my PX4 but started wondering if I’m giving up recoil control or accuracy due to my grip. My understanding is it’s ideal to have the slide aligned with your forearm for best control, but is there a certain amount of flexibility that is “good enough”? When I miss with a first DA shot it’s almost always high right. I have the small backstrap on.

Here is my grip from the holster and giving me what I feel is enough trigger control.




Here is with a more textbook grip but doesn’t give me enough finger on trigger for me to be accurate.




Is my current grip acceptable or is the trigger reach just too far?

[JCN]

@tlong17

Edit: I was going to recommend trying thinner grips or a flat faced trigger but a quick Google shows not much aftermarket support for Beretta, unfortunately!

[DDTSGM]

I’ve been shooting 92s and PX4’s for about a year now. Only shot strikers before that.

I’ve really enjoyed my PX4 but started wondering if I’m giving up recoil control or accuracy due to my grip. My understanding is it’s ideal to have the slide aligned with your forearm for best control, but is there a certain amount of flexibility that is “good enough”? When I miss with a first DA shot it’s almost always high right. I have the small backstrap on.

Bunch of questions with the caveat you really can't coach w/o seeing.

What makes you question accuracy and recoil control? Are you shooting worse with the DA/SA's than with the striker fired?

When you miss with the DA shot high right, more often than not are you holding the pistol positioned for optimal trigger or positioned for optimal grip aligned along forearm?

Do you have a timer? Are your SA splits consistent with what you were doing striker-fired? Have you timed your DA stroke on the buzzer from sight picture on the target? In other words, how long are you taking to fire the DA shot?

What is the red dot doing when you dry fire DA?

A lot of .mil and LE shooters have to shoot what they are issued. This means some folks don't get perfect web on the hand positioning on the backstrap. Many of them become acceptable shots. It is obvious the pistol is not optimally sized for your hand. IMO if you are able to get the same 'off-set' grip from the holster consistently under the stress of time, your grip is not too far out in left-field.

DA high and to the right could be caused by not pulling straight to the rear on the DA stroke. Sometimes with a curved trigger folks have a tendency to ride up the trigger, which can cause muzzle rise. The kicker is that often RH shooters will pull to the right on the DA shot if they have too much finger on the trigger, they generally push left with too little.

Another problem I've seen is shooters w/o adequate grip/finger strength muscle the pistol up with their wrists to compensate when shooting DA.

Finally, some folks don't like the DA shot, they tend to stage the trigger, which results in pistol movement all over the place, best bet is to jump off the bridge, so to speak, and commit to the rapid, smooth, DA stroke without pause so long as you have the sight picture you need.

There is a lot that can go on. Some folks will tell you get a properly sized pistol. If your happy shooting the pistol, I'd consider some of the things I've mentioned (and I'm sure more knowledgeable folks will mention) before I traded for another pistol.

If possible, get someone knowledgeable to watch you, or video yourself both dry and live firing.

Good luck.

[CraigS]

I know it's just me but I have never even looked at the arm vs pistol alignment. To me it is what it is. Since your accuracy problem is in DA, I can make a couple of suggestions. 1- Go to LTT and order a couple of hammer springs.
https://langdontactical.com/px4-chro...hammer-spring/
or a TJIB
https://langdontactical.com/products...ag/px4-series/
2- While you wait for the parts to arrive go to youtube and look for Ernest's 'Fear not the DA Shot' videos.
3- Go to the range and force yourself to shoot at least one box of ammo all in DA. When we used to shoot at indoor ranges only I always shot my last mag of the day all in DA.

[tlong17]

I know it's just me but I have never even looked at the arm vs pistol alignment. To me it is what it is. Since your accuracy problem is in DA, I can make a couple of suggestions. 1- Go to LTT and order a couple of hammer springs.
https://langdontactical.com/px4-chro...hammer-spring/
or a TJIB
https://langdontactical.com/products...ag/px4-series/
2- While you wait for the parts to arrive go to youtube and look for Ernest's 'Fear not the DA Shot' videos.
3- Go to the range and force yourself to shoot at least one box of ammo all in DA. When we used to shoot at indoor ranges only I always shot my last mag of the day all in DA.

This is good advice. I have done 1 and 2. Even attending EL’s advanced tactical pistol class and earning a hat pin. He did not bring any attention to my grip at the time but he had a lot of students to watch over. I think the LTT work is the only reason I can shoot the PX4 well at all, hah!

Done 3 before but not in an effort to compare performance to a striker pistol. Maybe I will do that today.

[tlong17]

Bunch of questions with the caveat you really can't coach w/o seeing.

What makes you question accuracy and recoil control? Are you shooting worse with the DA/SA's than with the striker fired?

I should do a better job taking notes and comparing performance between the two. The only measurable differences I've noted have been similar FAST and Adv. Super Test times but faster splits with 92/PX4 than G19.

When you miss with the DA shot high right, more often than not are you holding the pistol positioned for optimal trigger or positioned for optimal grip aligned along forearm?

While I haven't stopped to look at my grip after, I have noticed that it seems like I'm higher on the trigger and not getting much finger on the trigger at all. So most likely not positioned for optimal trigger position. This grip issue only came to mind as I was dry firing and trying burying my trigger finger deeper and feeling like I have much better control but of course the back of the pistol is now more into my thumb than the web of my hand.

Do you have a timer? Are your SA splits consistent with what you were doing striker-fired? Have you timed your DA stroke on the buzzer from sight picture on the target? In other words, how long are you taking to fire the DA shot?

SA splits are marginally faster on average when I compare to G19.

What is the red dot doing when you dry fire DA?

When dry firing, I can keep it very still throughout the DA press burying more trigger finger in. If I don't do that, half the time it moves to the right immediately after the trigger press finishes and snaps back to center. It moves very little but enough to create the missing right. The other half of the time it doesn't move.

A lot of .mil and LE shooters have to shoot what they are issued. This means some folks don't get perfect web on the hand positioning on the backstrap. Many of them become acceptable shots. It is obvious the pistol is not optimally sized for your hand. IMO if you are able to get the same 'off-set' grip from the holster consistently under the stress of time, your grip is not too far out in left-field.

DA high and to the right could be caused by not pulling straight to the rear on the DA stroke. Sometimes with a curved trigger folks have a tendency to ride up the trigger, which can cause muzzle rise. The kicker is that often RH shooters will pull to the right on the DA shot if they have too much finger on the trigger, they generally push left with too little.

Another problem I've seen is shooters w/o adequate grip/finger strength muscle the pistol up with their wrists to compensate when shooting DA.

Finally, some folks don't like the DA shot, they tend to stage the trigger, which results in pistol movement all over the place, best bet is to jump off the bridge, so to speak, and commit to the rapid, smooth, DA stroke without pause so long as you have the sight picture you need.

There is a lot that can go on. Some folks will tell you get a properly sized pistol. If your happy shooting the pistol, I'd consider some of the things I've mentioned (and I'm sure more knowledgeable folks will mention) before I traded for another pistol.

If possible, get someone knowledgeable to watch you, or video yourself both dry and live firing.

Good luck.

See my additions. This is great, thank you for the help. I did attend EL's adv tactical pistol class but when watching me did not note anything about my grip (was shooting a 92, non vertec, with regular reach trigger). Could be he just didn't have time to address any issues.

I think my take away here is to do some more timed drills between the two and film myself. There is nobody in my immediate area that knows jack about shooting a DA/SA pistol.

I am relatively happy with my performance on the 92/PX4 but of course am always seeking improvement. I want to determine if my less than "optimal" grip is holding me back or if it doesn't really matter that much and I should just drive on.

[CraigS]

One other thing that helps me is gripping w/ my support hand tighter. I've been shooting for about 20 years and the first 16 were at indoor ranges no drawing from holsters, don't shoot too fast, etc. So I had no reason to try to keep the gun from moving. I figured, it's going a go up, and then it is going to come back down. No problem. Then I shot my first idpa match. And I watched guys doing the usual double taps so---dang---fast and their gun hardly moved. OMG, how the heck will I ever do that? Oh, what is this dry firing I keep seeing and hearing people talk about? We had lasers on a couple of our 92s and I started dry firing and dang that dot was moving around. I kept seeing people say your total grip should be about 60-70% support hand and 30-40% strong hand. Ok, try that. I got a CO2 B92 replica so I could practice in the basement. Every time I concentrate on a good strong weak hand grip I can see the results immediately. I don't even need to look at the target, I can see and feel that the gun isn't moving as much. I can even see and feel it w/ the BB gun which, of course, has no recoil. It helps in two ways. 1- the gun moves less on that first DA shot which is why I bring it up here, and 2- the gun gets back on target more quickly for the 2nd shot. One of my current problems is remembering to tighten up that weak hand. On many of the idpa stages, as I walk up to take my position, I am glad no one can read my mind because I am often repeating to myself, strong weak hand, strong weak hand grip, strong weak hand grip.

[LukeNCMX]

You do not need to have the backstrap centered in the web of your firing hand. The centered web approach is successful with some but not all shooters. You may find an offset web not only allows you to get more finger on the trigger, but it also opens up the support side of the pistol to get some of the meat of your support hand on the backstrap. This type of grip with front to back pressure is very successful with some shooters.

[tlong17]

You do not need to have the backstrap centered in the web of your firing hand. The centered web approach is successful with some but not all shooters. You may find an offset web not only allows you to get more finger on the trigger, but it also opens up the support side of the pistol to get some of the meat of your support hand on the backstrap. This type of grip with front to back pressure is very successful with some shooters.

I have definitely noted having more space to press support hand into the grip. I like that aspect.

[Rex G]

Just don’t shoot .44 Magnum N-Frames, gripping in the manner as shown in your first image. I did, and it wrecked my hand. Forever. I backed-down to .41 Magnums, which hurt less, but, oh, mercy, if I could go back in time, and warn myself, to shoot K/L-Frame duty/carry revolvers, with your K/L-Frame-sized hands. (Actually, I have long hands, but medium and short fingers and thumbs.)