Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathon's Crystal Ball Predictions

[Warped Mindless]

Regarding pistol red dot optics, I have a somewhat unpopular opinion about them….

The average concealed carrier should probably not bother with them.

What I’ve noticed when training newer shooters is that a RDS greatly helps their stationary shooting skills over irons but when I have them rapidly move while shooting they do worse with a RDS compared to irons. Yes this can be overcome with training but the average person is simply not going to train that much.

The same is true in force on force with both iron and RDS equipped sim pistols. Newer guys have a lot of trouble finding the dot during a dynamic situation where another person is shooting back at them and they do better with irons.

Again, the average poster here is going to train enough where the pros of having a RDS comes into play but the average concealed carrier is not.

Just an observation from training newer shooters.

[GJM]

Regarding pistol red dot optics, I have a somewhat unpopular opinion about them….

The average concealed carrier should probably not bother with them.

What I’ve noticed when training newer shooters is that a RDS greatly helps their stationary shooting skills over irons but when I have them rapidly move while shooting they do worse with a RDS compared to irons. Yes this can be overcome with training but the average person is simply not going to train that much.

The same is true in force on force with both iron and RDS equipped sim pistols. Newer guys have a lot of trouble finding the dot during a dynamic situation where another person is shooting back at them and they do better with irons.

Again, the average poster here is going to train enough where the pros of having a RDS comes into play but the average concealed carrier is not.

Just an observation from training newer shooters.

What is interesting about that, is Stoeger says if you don't have a dot, you are far better to post up and shoot. Devil is, of course, in the details, and there are a wide variety of shooter skill levels and target objectives. Hilton Yam once remarked, that in a tactical situation, you are better off to shoot, run full speed, stop and shoot again, because the IDPA shuffle that is often observed is hardly moving.

[HCM]

Whose photo is that, HCM?

That is Bruce Nelson drawing a 1911 from a summer special holster AIWB.

As GJM noted Nelson designed and used the “Summer Special” as an AIWB holster. My understanding is that Nelson licensed the design to Milt Sparks since as a full time LEO with a part time holster business Nelson could not keep up with demand.

[HCM]

Regarding pistol red dot optics, I have a somewhat unpopular opinion about them….

The average concealed carrier should probably not bother with them.

What I’ve noticed when training newer shooters is that a RDS greatly helps their stationary shooting skills over irons but when I have them rapidly move while shooting they do worse with a RDS compared to irons. Yes this can be overcome with training but the average person is simply not going to train that much.

The same is true in force on force with both iron and RDS equipped sim pistols. Newer guys have a lot of trouble finding the dot during a dynamic situation where another person is shooting back at them and they do better with irons.

Again, the average poster here is going to train enough where the pros of having a RDS comes into play but the average concealed carrier is not.

Just an observation from training newer shooters.

Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) has been tracking FOF results with his students using both irons and RDS for a few years. His results show higher hit rates with RDS in FOF.

[GlockenSpiel]

Regarding pistol red dot optics, I have a somewhat unpopular opinion about them….

The average concealed carrier should probably not bother with them.

What I’ve noticed when training newer shooters is that a RDS greatly helps their stationary shooting skills over irons but when I have them rapidly move while shooting they do worse with a RDS compared to irons. Yes this can be overcome with training but the average person is simply not going to train that much.

The same is true in force on force with both iron and RDS equipped sim pistols. Newer guys have a lot of trouble finding the dot during a dynamic situation where another person is shooting back at them and they do better with irons.

Again, the average poster here is going to train enough where the pros of having a RDS comes into play but the average concealed carrier is not.

Just an observation from training newer shooters.

This reflects my observations as well. To be honest I think this forum is getting a little group think going regarding red dots and the abilities of average, lightly trained shooters to benefit from them in the most likely defensive scenario.

[CCT125US]

Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) has been tracking FOF results with his students using both irons and RDS for a few years. His results show higher hit rates with RDS in FOF.

Curious what demographic his students are made up of.

Who is most likely to attend: FOF? Using optics? WIth Aaron Cowan?..... Genuine questions?

Most likely not the new owner of an off the shelf optics equipped micro pistol.

[Warped Mindless]

Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) has been tracking FOF results with his students using both irons and RDS for a few years. His results show higher hit rates with RDS in FOF.

Aaron has certainly trained more students than me but I would wager the average skill of his students at the start of his class is still higher than the skill of the average concealed carrier overall and certainly higher than the newer students I teach.

[Warped Mindless]

This reflects my observations as well. To be honest I think this forum is getting a little group think going regarding red dots and the abilities of average, lightly trained shooters to benefit from them in the most likely defensive scenario.

I think when you train a lot and only talk to people who train a lot it’s easy to forget that the average carrier shoots like 50 - 100rds a year.

[Kanye Wyoming]

I was probably best described throughout my life as a young fogey, and am now bordering on old fogey. Unless there is an obviously intelligent and rational basis for thinking something is a better mousetrap, not a fad or gimmick or the manifestation of a psychological disturbance, stick with what has worked. And get off my lawn. Temperamentally, then, I’m right there with Ken Hackathorn, not to mention that he’s forgotten more about firearms and shooting just in the past week than I know or will ever know.

I first picked up a handgun 6 years ago so in gun years I’m a young fogey. But still a fogey. After putting in 4+ years of reasonably hard work to become minimally/moderately “old school” proficient - iron sights, IWB at 4 o’clock - I got my first red dot and taught myself. Within 3 to 4 months over 2 or 3 cases of ammo I got to the point where I felt confident in my draw and on a consistent basis I’d knocked a good 1/4 second + off my times on the drills I use as a baseline, like The Test and FAST, and maybe .15 seconds on Bill Drill. Better mousetrap. Started carrying with a dot.

I took Scott Jedlinski’s (Jedi) class a few months ago. Since then I’ve knocked off another good 1/4 second on a consistent basis (another .15 or so on Bill Drill). Carrying IWB at 4 o’clock meant I was the slow normal kid in the class. Ashamed and embarrassed, I dipped my toe into AIWB, practiced like hell, and I’ve since knocked 1/4 second off my draw on a consistent basis. Better mousetrap - now an average of about 2.85 with a 1.75 draw to first shot on Bill Drill versus about 3.30/2.10 18 months ago. And now I carry AIWB exclusively. Psychologically, one thing that helped me immensely was this John Johnston YouTube video explaining that if you do it properly, you’re not muzzling the meat and two veg when reholstering.



You don’t know what you don’t know until you know it. All of this being a long way of saying that Ken Hackathorn hasn’t yet taken Jedi’s class; if/when he does, he will change his tune. The timer doesn’t lie.

Since matriculating to the dot, I’ve worked with a few relative newbies and 150 rounds/year guys. The speed at which their performance and confidence advances after I’ve introduced them to the red dot is kind of astounding.

[GJM]

This reflects my observations as well. To be honest I think this forum is getting a little group think going regarding red dots and the abilities of average, lightly trained shooters to benefit from them in the most likely defensive scenario.

I have never heard the pistol red dot recommended for non enthusiast shooters.

While I didn’t listen to every word of the original video, I understood they were saying a red dot was not ideal for skilled shooters?