Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathon's Crystal Ball Predictions

[GJM]

I have shot with Bill multiple times, and he shoots with a very high level of accuracy. So much so, my wife calls Bill “snake eyes Wilson.” My guess is he just doesn’t want to invest the effort to make the change to an optic, when his skills with irons are so strong.

I did chuckle about the training guy, Ken, arguing that the red dot took so much training, and the purveyor of high end pistols, Bill, lamenting the cost of a red dot.

[SouthNarc]

I take note that the first few paragraphs of part two of the Force Science articles referenced above were dedicated to "clarifying" an inaccurate conclusion among some readers that FSI was endorsing point shooting. Nothing in the first article made any such endorsement.

As I read through this thread today, I am struck by the fact that opinions are being assigned to Mr. Hackathorn that he did not express in the video. They are opinions that he most certainly did not express to me when he and I discussed the video, among other things.

"We" on this forum and others like it are super-consumers. If we were/are golfers, we would try every new driver or ball to hit the market. We're the same people who buy every accessory for a Jeep and then rip it apart the very next month to install something else. It's natural that "we" would gravitate toward the dot just like we have tried every trigger system to hit the market.

"We" would price a prospective gun purchaser right out of the market. There was a time when we'd take a friend or someone seeking help to a gun store and pick out a trade-in wheelgun and a decent holster. That old Model 10 became a third generation Glock.

Now, those people can't buy that trade-in Glock. They must add another $500 or so to the price of admission even though that Glock would meet their needs. Their needs; not "our" needs.

If we were all to gather on the range for a "loser buys lunch" match, I'd run my CZ P10 C topped with an SRO, but when we leave the range, I'd be packing my iron sighted Glock. I can post a higher score with the dot gun, but I have yet to take it through low light work, and I have not run a dot in a force on force setting, and I am not willing to give up the known for speculation.

Does anyone really think that one of the most accomplished trainers in the history of training forged an opinion without putting in the work to form a basis for that opinion. Do you really think that a guy who has trained special forces and the like all over the world has an insignificant amount of time on a dot gun?

I don't know Bill Wilson, and I have never had an interaction with him, but I doubt that his company is selling dot capable pistols and he hasn't grabbed a sample, walked outside to his range, and put in work with one. It's not like Wilson Combat operates on the same scale of production as Glock, Sig, or S&W. Not continuing to innovate? He built his name on custom building a design that's 100 years old but has also come out with a grip module and custom options for the hottest design to come out in the last decade.

Now, as for the Force Science gaze study, @Erick Gelhaus, @John Hearne, and I are all graduates of Force Science. We are trying to align our schedules this week to discuss the study and related topics for an episode. @SouthNarc, if you are free and wish to play along, you are cordially invited. Hit me up on Messenger or give me a call/text.

Heading out to CA. Lee so I can't make it happen this week but I'm game when all our schedules align.

[JCN]

"We" on this forum and others like it are super-consumers. If we were/are golfers, we would try every new driver or ball to hit the market. We're the same people who buy every accessory for a Jeep and then rip it apart the very next month to install something else. It's natural that "we" would gravitate toward the dot just like we have tried every trigger system to hit the market.

"We" would price a prospective gun purchaser right out of the market. There was a time when we'd take a friend or someone seeking help to a gun store and pick out a trade-in wheelgun and a decent holster. That old Model 10 became a third generation Glock.

Now, those people can't buy that trade-in Glock. They must add another $500 or so to the price of admission even though that Glock would meet their needs. Their needs; not "our" needs.

I’m trying to be kindler and gentler so I’m trying to offer a different opinion without being inflammatory.

When I recommend things for friends, I try and respect their use pattern and budget.

It’s not about what I would buy, it’s about what I would recommend for them if they ask my opinion.

A factory optic cut gun these days can be had for 300-500 and a Romeo Zero that would be good enough for most casual users can be had for $160.

Add to that, training with a dot can save a new shooter money by cutting off time and ammo from their learning curve… IMO it pays for itself.

Does anyone really think that one of the most accomplished trainers in the history of training forged an opinion without putting in the work to form a basis for that opinion. Do you really think that a guy who has trained special forces and the like all over the world has an insignificant amount of time on a dot gun?

I kind of do think that.

But I’m a skeptic and have seen ego make intelligent and high functioning people avoid things that make them uncomfortable. Some SMEs have a really difficult time not being an SME and that blocks their open-mindedness and learning.

It’s not that he spent an insignificant amount of time on dots, it’s that he MIGHT have a bajillion hours with irons and proportionally the amount of time he spent on dots might not have been sufficient to form a truly informed decision because of his established biases.

If you get a chance to ask Mr. Hackathorn, you can ask him for us:
How many rounds / hours has he spent with dot guns.
And how many rounds / hours has he spent with irons.

That’s not meant as an insult or a dig. It’s just a fact finding question.

I make an assumption. You make a different assumption.

Why don’t we just find out?

I would guess that he has spent less than 10,000 rounds and under 1000 hours with dots.
And I would guess that he has over a million rounds shot with irons and countless hours.

I don't know Bill Wilson, and I have never had an interaction with him, but I doubt that his company is selling dot capable pistols and he hasn't grabbed a sample, walked outside to his range, and put in work with one. It's not like Wilson Combat operates on the same scale of production as Glock, Sig, or S&W. Not continuing to innovate? He built his name on custom building a design that's 100 years old but has also come out with a grip module and custom options for the hottest design to come out in the last decade.

I have one of the early EDC X9s and optic cuts were not an option. I don’t get the feeling that they would have offered optic cuts from the factory without other companies like Nighthawk (who cut mine for me) eating their lunch. It took them years to offer it.

Just like it took IDPA getting their lunch eaten by USPSA AIWB to consider it.

I really like Wilson Combat guns. These “opinion” videos come off as tone deaf and I wager will eventually hurt their brand. I don’t want to see that happen.

[CCT125US]

I respect what Ken has been able to accomplish and appreciate his dedication to the craft.

Many years ago, I was able to attend a 2 day course with him.

I have written here, both publicly and in PMs regarding my thoughts. Those will not be rehashed here.

Would I attend another class with Ken? If I was paid, alot.

[YVK]

Does anyone really think that one of the most accomplished trainers in the history of training forged an opinion without putting in the work to form a basis for that opinion. Do you really think that a guy who has trained special forces and the like all over the world has an insignificant amount of time on a dot gun?

After I read your comment I went back and listened to him again, Lee. If he indeed spent enough time on the dot, then he didn't show it in that talk. I already mentioned the things I agreed with him in regards to criticism of the dots. However, he chose to concentrate on negatives and perceived difficulties, some of which can rectified with training investments of not very high magnitude, whether time or live fire. Not losing a dot on transferring to support takes less training than what it takes to shoot basic at RSS. I've zero problem with people not liking or not choosing the dots. I've zero problems carrying dots or irons myself; the situation dictates. I do have a hard time accepting expertise without seeing it in the depth of discussion; such discussion is lacking when the only positive mentioned is accuracy past 18 yards.

[jlw]

After I read your comment I went back and listened to him again, Lee. If he indeed spent enough time on the dot, then he didn't show it in that talk. I already mentioned the things I agreed with him in regards to criticism of the dots. However, he chose to concentrate on negatives and perceived difficulties, some of which can rectified with training investments of not very high magnitude, whether time or live fire. Not losing a dot on transferring to support takes less training than what it takes to shoot basic at RSS. I've zero problem with people not liking or not choosing the dots. I've zero problems carrying dots or irons myself; the situation dictates. I do have a hard time accepting expertise without seeing it in the depth of discussion; such discussion is lacking when the only positive mentioned is accuracy past 18 yards.

Yes. Those issues can be rectified with training, etc, but "we" are not the people he is referencing. He's talking about the cop that draws his pistol on annual qual day and who has to knock the dust bunny and french fry off of the sights before firing the first shot and the person without the technical ability to maintain a 1911.

[Rocky Racoon]

Strange thread in one way.

Seems like it wasn't long ago that folks said fawningly "Hack is getting old and cutting back on classes. Go train with this national treasure while you can before we are diminished."

But now that he went against PF conventional wisdom regarding RDSs, he's an old man yelling at the clouds and folks are dogpiling on him?

In another way it's not a strange thread since groupthink is strong in this forum.

I just hope Scott Reitz hurries up and puts a dot on his 1911. I'd hate to see yall try to cancel him too.

[GJM]

Strange thread in one way.

Seems like it wasn't long ago that folks said fawningly "Hack is getting old and cutting back on classes. Go train with this national treasure while you can before we are diminished."

But now that he went against PF conventional wisdom regarding RDSs, he's an old man yelling at the clouds and folks are dogpiling on him?

In another way it's not a strange thread since groupthink is strong in this forum.

I just hope Scott Reitz hurries up and puts a dot on his 1911. I'd hate to see yall try to cancel him too.

It is not just this forum, there is a red dot revolution going on.

[HCM]

Strange thread in one way.

Seems like it wasn't long ago that folks said fawningly "Hack is getting old and cutting back on classes. Go train with this national treasure while you can before we are diminished."

But now that he went against PF conventional wisdom regarding RDSs, he's an old man yelling at the clouds and folks are dogpiling on him?

In another way it's not a strange thread since groupthink is strong in this forum.

I just hope Scott Reitz hurries up and puts a dot on his 1911. I'd hate to see yall try to cancel him too.

There’s a difference between saying the Dot is not for me and saying the dot is not viable. The former is a personal decision the latter requires putting in the work necessary to make a valid evaluation.

[blues]

Is there no end?...it took 28 years for you guys to cajole me into installing night sights on my Glocks...now this...

(I've got an H2 on my AR. That's as far as I'm going down this road.)