Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathon's Crystal Ball Predictions

[TCinVA]

Fair enough.

One thing that is strictly a theory of mine, is that it's a little easier to "course correct" a poor index from a compromised draw position with irons than it is from a dot.

STRICTLY a theory and I acknowledge I have no data to support this and more often than not the actual answers to things are counterintuitive.

That's something I've looked at and I'd agree. You have more information on how you're off when you're in a compromised position with irons than with a dot.

...and I think "index" is poorly taught and understood. But that's a whole bucket of worms I'm not going to dive into on the interwebs. But we can probably get into that at Tac Con if we happen to be around the admin building at the same time.

[TCinVA]

So as an interesting aside for a completely different gun topic, this very issue was my argument against below eye-line, FAS style point shooting with all those weirdos in the 2000s, who insisted that there was zero visual referencing of the gun in what they were doing, particularly the 1/4 and 1/2 hip positions. I always wanted to do an experiment with those guys where they wore something like a doggy chew cone around their neck that completely obscured their vision from the chin down, shoot those same positions and see if the results changed.

Even Bill Jordan allegedly glanced down at his revolver for a split second according to some old timers.

Super interesting to see this manifest in a completely different training topic.

On a private range with very skilled shooters I've actually done the "blind swordsman" (meaning draw and fire with eyes closed...don't try that at home, kids!) drill on the draw to prove definitively that there's a whole shitload of visual input required for even well-habituated movements like the draw. Unsurprisingly, even standing in exactly the same spot with a completely still target after more than two draws the hits on target rapidly degraded to the point where hitting paper at 5 yards was about all they could hope for.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We tried a similar thing in TX, years ago. Put a hood over the shooter. RO right next to you to make sure you didn't go astray. Drew and fired at a similar distance target. You would expect that from a well practiced motor program, you would hit well - well, there was a pretty wide dispersion of hits on the IPDA target. Everyone was a practiced shooter. Most were on paper. We are certainly not the level of Marvel's Daredevil.

[Default.mp3]

On a private range with very skilled shooters I've actually done the "blind swordsman" (meaning draw and fire with eyes closed...don't try that at home, kids!) drill on the draw to prove definitively that there's a whole shitload of visual input required for even well-habituated movements like the draw. Unsurprisingly, even standing in exactly the same spot with a completely still target after more than two draws the hits on target rapidly degraded to the point where hitting paper at 5 yards was about all they could hope for.

A former SMU guy did a variation of that with a couple of us. As I recall, it was full-sized IPSC steel at like 15 yards. Look at the target, then close your eyes, draw, and fire. I think I had about a 50% hit rate with my helmet on, and it went to like 80% after I took my helmet off (my muffs were mounted to my helmet, but I still had plugs in under). The guy was using more of an audit of our indexes, and said that he would do with an unloaded gun and a random point he'd pick out in a room.

That being said, I don't know if you need that much visual feedback of the gun itself for the draw, since the aforementioned blind drills also deprive you of your target location, and now you're juggling multiple planes. Drawing and firing under NODs while flat-footed is pretty trivial with an RDS, IME, and the only visual feedback of the gun I get is the dot itself appearing in my vision; SotM and unorthodox angles are obviously slower, but not excessively so compared to daytime speeds.

[Clusterfrack]

I like blind draws as a diagnostic for grip and index, but do them dry and without a target. Are my sights aligned or dot centered after presentation? When they're not, do I already know?

[TCinVA]

We tried a similar thing in TX, years ago. Put a hood over the shooter. RO right next to you to make sure you didn't go astray. Drew and fired at a similar distance target. You would expect that from a well practiced motor program, you would hit well - well, there was a pretty wide dispersion of hits on the IPDA target. Everyone was a practiced shooter. Most were on paper. We are certainly not the level of Marvel's Daredevil.

Precisely.

The way it worked was, you draw and shoot with eyes open.

Then, without moving even the slightest bit, do some draws with eyes closed. The first round would usually be pretty good. Then it would rapidly devolve into a shitshow...because without the visual input the steering that we do without conscious thought can't happen.

You don't even need a gun to do it. Just point at something a couple of times. Hand at sides, point at a thing relatively close to you. Then close your eyes and repeat that action 5 or 6 times. Then open your eyes on the 7th. Odds are you aren't pointed at that thing anymore. Odds are you're significantly off of it.

Even the world's best guitarists will look down at the neck when they're playing for the same reason...sometimes you have to see where your hands are on the neck to hit your next notes.

[mmc45414]

If you can recreate this situation, this might be a perfect opportunity to put some painter tape over the front of the SRO to verify that you are fully target focusing.

Hmmmm.... perhaps this introduces another potential variable, I am mono-vision and cross dominant, and typically shoot pistols without corrective glasses.
The good news is, I am not as cross dominant as I probably once was, the first surgery with corrective implant was probably about 2005, and I spend a lot of time not wearing glasses.

We setup the targets like that most every weekend, but it is with a group and we time each other through various strings, so I am not able to just do a bunch of reps over and over, but maybe I will try some tape, and maybe with and without corrective lenses.

[GJM]

I shot this test late this afternoon. I used the official target at seven yards, and a slimline pistol and small optic, a P365 Macro with an XL upper and Holosun 407K, Lawman 124 ammo, a Comp Tac holster, TREX mag pouch, Mastermind belt and a Filson vest. The allowable time is 33.8 seconds, and my time was 28.72, and I made the time allowed for each of the seven tests that comprise the test. I scored 135/150, which was the min passing score, with two shots just outside and three touching the line. You get dinged for shots touching the line according to what I read. I used the Hackathorn start position with the concealed draw parts of the test.

Here is my breakdown for each part of the test.



About as interesting as watching green grass grow, here is a video of me shooting the entire test. Between the number of strings on the test, and the pressure of video, it is somewhat challenging.



After I finished the test, I was looking at the unshot head boxes on each target, and decided the turbo version of the test would be making the same times but using the smaller head box. I tried it, and successfully got to the very last string, the kneeling reload and managed to fall over and go way over time, failing the test since you have to make the time on each individual test. Gives me something to work on.

Here is perhaps the hardest part of the turbo version of the test.

[GJM]

The upper scoring box on the Air Marshall target is just over 3x3. I decided the turbo version of the test should be all the same times and points, except using the upper scoring zone. Since the scoring zone is pretty small and the line is pretty thick, my rule is hits on the line count just like in USPSA.

I shot it today, again with my Macro, but warmed up from my regular practice with a 320. I completed the test, making all the times, and had five shots outside the area, for a score of 135. I was clean until the one reload one, when I dropped three of my five shots. Didn't get it on video, because my wife had zero interest stopping her practice to do it. Now that I know is is doable, I will do my best to repeat on video.

Once you have done the regular AM test, I highly recommend the turbo version as you have to keep to a high level of accuracy for 30 shots, with enough manipulations to mess with you.

[Joe in PNG]

I'm kind of curious as to what those irons shooters with less than perfect eyesight do on the range? Do their shooting glasses match their prescriptions, or do they have shooting glasses especially optimized for shooting? Is getting a good focus on one's sights while wearing trifocals doable?