DA/SA revolver for self-defense. Liability concern?

[Mas]

The DA/SA issue goes way back. Even before my time, and I'm pretty old.

The issue was that, first, the cocked hammer did create a hair trigger issue that led to unintended discharges, some of them tragic.

But second -- the part almost everyone misses -- was the credible-sounding false allegation of same .

That such a thing could be dangerous was easy for prosecutor or plaintiff's counsel to prove. In one case, the prosecution put into evidence the Colt revolver user's manual to show that cocking the hammer was forbidden unless you were going to fire immediately. One of the popular police training films of the '80s acted out an unintentional fatal due to the officer cocking his Model 10. Even if an officer had fired double action, the cocked gun argument was an easy hook on which to hang an unmeritorious plaintiff's action or prosecution.

This became so significant that in the late '60s/early '70s, LAPD rendered every service revolver on their department double action only. Miami did the same after the false allegation of cocked hammer case that @Glenn brought up, [I]Florida v. Luis Alvarez[I] between the shooting in '82 and the trial in '84. NYPD followed suit. Montreal did the same after the case that I think @HCM was referring to, Crown v. Allen Gossett.

We even saw the false allegation of cocked hammers in TDA autos. The only reason we see it less today is the dominance of striker fired pistols, which have their own issues if they have lighter than factory spec duty pull weights. See Santibanes v. Tomball and Galmon v. Phebus.

As some have noted here, opposing counsel can try anything and everything. The problem is, the "hair trigger" issue is extremely credible to a jury and difficult to refute. If they're trying to show arrogant recklessness with guns, being able to paint you as someone who thought he knew more about the gun than the company which made it or major departments which use it, proved to be a powerful tool for the other side. In a world where most PPC masters shoot revolvers double action from the 50 yard line, it's hard to convince a jury that single action capability was needed in a defense revolver.

[okie john]

But second -- the part almost everyone misses -- was the credible-sounding false allegation of same.

Duly noted.


Okie John

[BehindBlueI's]

My question boils down to, is it wise to carry a stock DA/SA revolver if you only plan to use it in DA? So I wouldn't want to pull the hammer back in a defensive situation.

I know many people carry a DA/SA revolver, so I'm definitely wanting to tread lightly, and not accuse anyone of being unwise.

The cases mentioned elsewhere on the internet do appear to be mostly over 30 years old, when revolver useage was more prevelent. As BehindBlueI's said, they seem to be before Glock's were really in use.

I'm hearing that a person should be fine if they use an un-modified DA/SA revolver in DA only.

I appreciate the information!

I've been through the legal aftermath of shooting someone from both sides. Way more as the investigator than the investigated, of course, but I'm pretty cognizant of what narratives are routinely built and tried. When I leave the house, I wear clothes I wouldn't mind a jury seeing me wearing shooting someone. I know what to say and how to say it to prime witnesses to view my actions more positively than they otherwise might. I do not modify my guns into any configuration not available from the factory or the factory's custom shop. Depending on your perspective, I'm either deeply paranoid or extremely prepared...but go through the ringer of potential civil and criminal charges twice and work a couple thousand cases and you get a certain view that others outside the system may not fully appreciate. I do everything I can to minimize the various narratives that can be launched at me, because each one means time, aggravation, and money even if it never sees a court room.

Anybody who's been to a depo after killing someone can assure you the questions allowed are much broader than what's allowed in court, and what's allowed in civil court is wider than criminal court.

I say that to say this: I have and do carry revolvers with the hammer spur if that's how they came from the factory. I just don't see it coming up in the post-Glock world.

[Lester Polfus]

Forensically, is it possible to tell if a primer was struck by a DA shot or an SA shot? I seem to remember there can be a difference in firing pin impression depth, but I don’t know how reliable that is. It also sounds like some thing dueling expert witnesses could put a kid through college with.


This issue was on my mind as I am making the transition from a DA/SA Smith 638 to a DAO 640 Pro, so it was a concern, but honestly WAY down on my list of things to worry about. Given my quiet life, 1) getting into a shooting and then 2) having to argue whether I justifiably did it on purpose or was recklessly waving a cocked gun around seems about as likely as getting struck by lightning, but hey, if you can eliminate chink in the armor, why not?

[wvincent]

Alrighty, I'll play the odd man out on this one.
Case in point. I had a 4" 64-8, traditional spurred hammer and DA/SA.
I decided to turn it into something more useful, a 3" "slicked up" K-Frame. (End Goal? a belly gun/heavy woolen coat pocket gun, for when it's stupid cold out)
What is the biggest item on a DA/SA revolver to slick up? The damn hammer spur. So, when the hammer spur went away, I made sure the SA capability went away also.
Why? For one, how in the hell do you safely cock the hammer on a hammerless gun? And how would one safely de-cock it? Oh, I'm sure someone, somewhere thinks they have the cheat code to the strange contortions and mumbled prayers that would be needed for this task.
But I like my shit simple, so no hammer spur, no SA capability. That would be the only reason I would remove the SA from a revolver.

ETA: I know, I have weird ideas for guns and usage. No need to dwell on it.

[4RNR]

Alrighty, I'll play the odd man out on this one.
Case in point. I had a 4" 64-8, traditional spurred hammer and DA/SA.
I decided to turn it into something more useful, a 3" "slicked up" K-Frame. (End Goal? a belly gun/heavy woolen coat pocket gun, for when it's stupid cold out)
What is the biggest item on a DA/SA revolver to slick up? The damn hammer spur. So, when the hammer spur went away, I made sure the SA capability went away also.
Why? For one, how in the hell do you safely cock the hammer on a hammerless gun? And how would one safely de-cock it? Oh, I'm sure someone, somewhere thinks they have the cheat code to the strange contortions and mumbled prayers that would be needed for this task.
But I like my shit simple, so no hammer spur, no SA capability. That would be the only reason I would remove the SA from a revolver.

ETA: I know, I have weird ideas for guns and usage. No need to dwell on it.

That's fine but you know you can just not cock the hammer. It's your gun so just shoot it in DA, which is probably how 99.99% of people shoot 99.99% of revolves. I have a bunch of revolvers but honestly can't think of a time when I shot them in SA.

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[wvincent]

That's fine but you know you can just not cock the hammer. It's your gun so just shoot it in DA, which is probably how 99.99% of people shoot 99.99% of revolves. I have a bunch of revolvers but honestly can't think of a time when I shot them in SA.

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Have you ever seen a revolver get cocked in a big fucking tussle? With multiple hands on the same gun trying get ownership of it?
Now, "someone" has "control" of a cocked revolver in SA mode, with no easy/safe way to get back to DA.
Also, going to be pretty tough to say I was in light trigger mode, or the hammer slipped off my thumb if it can't go bang that way.

See the point yet?

[4RNR]

Have you ever seen a revolver get cocked in a big fucking tussle? With multiple hands on the same gun trying get ownership of it?
Now, "someone" has "control" of a cocked revolver in SA mode, with no easy/safe way to get back to DA.
Also, going to be pretty tough to say I was in light trigger mode, or the hammer slipped off my thumb if it can't go bang that way.

See the point yet?

If theres other hands on my fucking gun other than mine there's bigger fucking problems than how do I decock it later. But hey yo do fucking you

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[wvincent]

I have read on various self-defense blogs, magazines, etc. about how having a DA/SA revolver with an exposed hammer could open its user up to liability issues if they have to use this revolver in a defensive situation. I belive it goes something like: "a prosecutor or plaintiff attorney could say that you had a hair trigger and the gun went off by accident,"

How do the members of this forum deal with that possibility? Perhaps some people do remove the SA capability, or buy revolvers without SA. While other people with a DA/SA revolver just don't let it bother them.

Is there some other way to protect yourself, in a legal aspect, if you choose to carry a DA/SA revolver?

Also, I wonder why I haven't heard of anyone being concerned with an exposed hammer DA/SA semi-auto. I don't hear people saying, "That DA/SA semi-auto is a liability! The prosecutor will say that you pulled the hammer back on your sig P226 in a defensive scenario, and the gun just went off accidentally."

If theres other hands on my fucking gun other than mine there's bigger fucking problems than how do I decock it later. But hey yo do fucking you

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I highlighted the relevant parts of the OP's post.
I think I tried to answer them.
Is that creating an issue for you?

[4RNR]

I highlighted the relevant parts of the OP's post.
I think I tried to answer them.
Is that creating an issue for you?

Hey I'm simply having a conversation. Doesn't necessarily mean I have to parrot or agree with everything you say or do.

Or do you need reassurance? In that case good job, I agree! Best thought ever!! Bravo!

Someone says I disable the SA feature. Someone else says you can just not use the SA feature. The first someone looses his shit over it!

But anyway good job!

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