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Thread: PCC, why bother?

  1. #41
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    Loving PCC

    I’m all in on PCC now. It’s ridiculous fun.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Once again, at last Sunday's USPSA match, PCCs won the Most Unreliable Gun award.
    Quote Originally Posted by jh9 View Post
    Kinda feel that way about rimfire guns at steel challenge matches.
    Shot three-gun yesterday, in my case this was Open class shotguns. I would maybe like to have an optic on my pistol, but I want to stay in TacOps to avoid these shenanigans. Some of it was probably brought about by the cold, dashboard said 18F on the drive there. By the time we were shooting it was a little warmer, but I am sure the guns that rode in the back of pickup trucks were still probably plenty congealed, on the first stage anyway. Even @bruceride had some trouble with his new/not broken in 1301 balking on 1oz loads that had been vetted on a warmer day (fortunately it worked fine with the 1-1/8oz loads I had). But those magazine fed shotguns are something I can honestly say I do NOT want. Only thirteen of us showed up, and there were still a lotta shotgun issues.

  3. #43
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    In my PCC experience, the AR-ish PCCs in 9 mm were prone to problems. The Rugers tended to run ok. Not a large sample though. Even an old PC9, that a friend had, ran.

  4. #44
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    Reading the BEnos forums on PCC, it seems as though a large portion of the malfunctions of 9mm blowback guns might be attributable to people experimenting with the guns, usually to get minimal recoil, and at the expense of optimal functioning.

    I like to watch the Sinistral Rifleman YouTube channels, and he shoots both Glock and Colt pattern PCCs without appearing to suffer from malfunctions.

    The 9mm AR direct blow-back guns seems to exist in a manner similar to the large-frame ARs, in that there's not any one specific standard, so the mixmaster stuff can get out of spec quickly. I know that there's at least two patterns of direct blowback extractors, one a 1911-ish spring part and another with a separate coil spring, and that the latter is generally going to have better functionality. Triggers also matter, in that the blowback guns put a lot more energy into the fire control, and that some triggers that are fine with 5.56mm guns are not so well off in 9mm blowback. The Colt pattern mags from Brownells and Metalform are different in feed lip and follower design than the Duramags, and the ProMags seem guaranteed to be trash. I don't trust aftermarket Glock magazines, and sticking mag extensions on doesn't seem like a boost to reliability.

    I've heard that it's best to have the same manufacturer for the lower, upper, bolt & barrel. This seems to make a lot of sense in that these are the parts that are going to determine functionality, and it would be good if they were parts that were directly and specifically designed to work together. I also think that these guns would seem to be best off built by a smith who could verify functionality, even though they certainly could be home-built with ease.

    Of course, we gun folk are notoriously cheap, and cheaper designs/parts might not have had the engineering design of others. If the key parts of the gun are from different manufacturers not designed to the exact same spec, if low price played a strong role in parts selection, if it's a home build, if some of the parts might be better suited to 5.56mm instead of 9mm, and if low recoil was prioritized over optimum functionality, then I see how reliability could be heavily compromised.
    Per the PF Code of Conduct, I have a commercial interest in the StreakTM product as sold by Ammo, Inc.

  5. #45
    When you guys say PCCs are unreliable, I assumed the HK SP5 roller semi-auto of MP5 was reliable. Like AK level reliability.

    Is that not true?

    And if it is true that it’s AK-level reliable, maybe it means PCCs can be reliable, but not cheaper ones since the SP5 is $3k+ I believe. Which of course negates ammo savings compared to running 5.56 by a large degree and is outside of the budget of most people.

    But if the SP5 is super reliable, then it seems unfair to say PCCs as a whole are unreliable. It would be like someone who can only afford to run $100 HiPoints and Lorcins saying that semi-automatic handguns are unreliable.

    Unless of course the SP5 is the only reliable PCC then we can say most are unreliable except one. Maybe the roller system is what makes it reliable but also very expensive to manufacture?
    Last edited by Sanch; 01-18-2022 at 11:33 AM.

  6. #46
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    When you guys say PCCs are unreliable, I assumed the HK SP5 roller semi-auto of MP5 was reliable. Like AK level reliability.

    Is that not true?
    I've only seen one dude run an MP5 at a match. It didn't jam. I don't know anyone who owns one, or the HK94 version. Given the expense, I'm not surprised.

    Interestingly, at the matches I attend AK's have not been as reliable as ARs. Not even close.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    Reading the BEnos forums on PCC, it seems as though a large portion of the malfunctions of 9mm blowback guns might be attributable to people experimenting with the guns, usually to get minimal recoil, and at the expense of optimal functioning.
    For someone not looking to shave splits, what would be a reasonable low-fuss entry to PCC — get the Ruger and run it essentially stock?

  8. #48
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    In my PCC experience, the AR-ish PCCs in 9 mm were prone to problems. The Rugers tended to run ok. Not a large sample though. Even an old PC9, that a friend had, ran.
    Yes, I have not seen any problems with the Rugers.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    When you guys say PCCs are unreliable, I assumed the HK SP5 roller semi-auto of MP5 was reliable. Like AK level reliability.

    Is that not true?

    And if it is true that it’s AK-level reliable, maybe it means PCCs can be reliable, but not cheaper ones since the SP5 is $3k+ I believe. Which of course negates ammo savings compared to running 5.56 by a large degree and is outside of the budget of most people.

    But if the SP5 is super reliable, then it seems unfair to say PCCs as a whole are unreliable. It would be like someone who can only afford to run $100 HiPoints and Lorcins saying that semi-automatic handguns are unreliable.

    Unless of course the SP5 is the only reliable PCC then we can say most are unreliable except one. Maybe the roller system is what makes it reliable but also very expensive to manufacture?
    My X95 was stupid reliable after I matched recoil spring rate to gamer ammo.
    I didn’t clean it often at all.

    Hundreds and hundreds of rounds without malfunction.

    My MPXs have been stupid reliable after I cleaned the factory sticky corrosion protector jelly out.

    Over a thousand rounds without malfunctions and I haven’t cleaned them very often either.

    @Clusterfrack I wonder what it is about your region? The local guys here haven’t had any malfunctions at matches more than handguns. Have you ever seen a JP malfunction?

    I think a lot of PCCs are meant for hotter ammo and if you’re getting gamey with it, then you have to make sure you have a system with enough operating margin to allow movement and transitions and dirt.

    Like when my X95 RSA was too stiff, I would jam if shooting on a hard transition to the right because I didn’t have enough ejection velocity to overcome the movement.

    JP rifles have a reputation of being very tolerant and reliable.

    Their new JP5 has roller delay MP5 type internals and should be a better choice than an MP5.

    So far I have not found PCC to be less reliable than Open, but it requires similar levels of tuning and understanding of what you’re working with.

  10. #50
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    PCC, why bother?

    My local guys are doing one of two things:
    1) Nothing. They buy a PCC and use whatever ammo. A reliable gun would have no problem with that. Eg. All of my ARs will shoot virtually any ammo, suppressed and unsuppressed.
    2) Try to tune their gun and apparently fail.

    At my clubs PCCs are about as (un)reliable as an Open 2011, and slightly less reliable than a 1911.

    For gaming, really who cares? (Well, actually I care. I won't shoot any division that requires a lot of fiddling and tuning).
    For defense, this is a complete dealbreaker.

    JP rifles are by far the least reliable ARs, IME. I have personally seen (and helped fix) more AR malfunctions involving JP components and rifles than all other malfunctions put together. It's not even close. Again, for gaming... whatever. It's annoying but no one's going to die. You couldn't pay me to put JP stuff in a defensive gun.

    Edit: one of the malfunctioning PCCs last Sunday was a JP non-roller block gun.

    The new JP roller block PCC sounds great. If I was going to shoot USPSA PCC (I'm not), it would be high on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    My X95 was stupid reliable after I matched recoil spring rate to gamer ammo.
    I didn’t clean it often at all.

    Hundreds and hundreds of rounds without malfunction.
    @Clusterfrack I wonder what it is about your region? The local guys here haven’t had any malfunctions at matches more than handguns. Have you ever seen a JP malfunction?
    ...
    JP rifles have a reputation of being very tolerant and reliable.

    Their new JP5 has roller delay MP5 type internals and should be a better choice than an MP5.

    So far I have not found PCC to be less reliable than Open, but it requires similar levels of tuning and understanding of what you’re working with.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 01-18-2022 at 03:44 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

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