PCC, why bother?

[Bergeron]

There are some common themes appearing in this thread. I've sourced all the parts for a RDB-16" 9mm, and am waiting on my smith's availability:

1) Access to indoor shooting ranges with limited rifle-caliber capabilities

2) Getting carbine-handling reps in during accessible pistol matches

3) Low cost-per-round training

4) Quiet shooting/Low blast

5) Less damage/closer range to steel or other targets

6) More accessible to low experience shooters

7) More compact carbines than 5.56mm guns

What else do we have?

[DrkBlue]

There are some common themes appearing in this thread. I've sourced all the parts for a RDB-16" 9mm, and am waiting on my smith's availability:

1) Access to indoor shooting ranges with limited rifle-caliber capabilities

2) Getting carbine-handling reps in during accessible pistol matches

3) Low cost-per-round training

4) Quiet shooting/Low blast

5) Less damage/closer range to steel or other targets

6) More accessible to low experience shooters

7) More compact carbines than 5.56mm guns

What else do we have?

I think you nailed it. #3 and #4 are my biggest drivers, e.g., just more fun to shoot.
At my club, we have pistol caliber only outdoor range bays. That was what pushed me to PCCs…
My problem is I have been chasing the dragon for a decade plus - with PCCs moving from simply a rifle analogue to now desiring the perfect PCC.

On the Timmy scale, I decided that shooting a PCC inside a vehicle or structure is much preferred to a rifle cartridge.
Also PCCs are much easier to suppress, which goes to the #6 accessibility issue. Once you suppress a rifle cartridge, it ruins you.

[Clusterfrack]

Plus one of the two local carbine matches attracts a lot of very weird people who are, lets just say, not your normal competitive shooter types.

Oh, yeah. Same here. Fortunately most of the truly oddball tactards at my carbine match aren’t regulars, or I can mostly avoid squadding with them. Mostly.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's true. There was a giant turnout some days of folks I've never seen before with all the gear. Some of the decals on the trucks were not in particularly good taste. As I said, we developed a squad of guys and the match directed indulged us sticking together.

One guy who runs some Frankenstein NY compliant 9mm AR-oid should be called: Dr. Jammer! Have to wait till the weather breaks to go outside again as the indoor rules preclude long arms.

[jbrimlow]

There are some common themes appearing in this thread. I've sourced all the parts for a RDB-16" 9mm, and am waiting on my smith's availability:

1) Access to indoor shooting ranges with limited rifle-caliber capabilities

2) Getting carbine-handling reps in during accessible pistol matches

3) Low cost-per-round training

4) Quiet shooting/Low blast

5) Less damage/closer range to steel or other targets

6) More accessible to low experience shooters

7) More compact carbines than 5.56mm guns

What else do we have?

I would add (similar to 1) outdoor ranges with limited rifle capabilities, either due to berms or due to distance available or both. Which leads to a lack of rifle matches, which means you need (2) if you even want to pretend to have carbine reps in under some kind of competitive pressure.

[JCN]

1. I’m not a very good long gun shooter (yet).
2. This video is just a starting point comparison for PCC versus 223/556 in the same chassis.

[jbrimlow]

1. I’m not a very good long gun shooter (yet).
2. This video is just a starting point comparison for PCC versus 223/556 in the same chassis.

Sweet. Is that factory 9mm in the PCC?

I've got a comparison video to make too, because I wonder how my MPX PCC compares to my race carbine with all the go-fast parts, but that's going to have to wait until I can get outside, because I'm not going to shoot that comp indoors.

[Glock26]

When I got my PCC, I did it for the sake of learning how to use a rifle. I wanted time behind the gun and 9 is less cost prohibitive than 556. Also, being able to run it in USPSA gave me an understanding of how to maneuver it at speed. I'm of the opinion that it's the best weapon platform for me within 50 yards and if given a choice, I'd choose a PCC over anything else in a home defense situation.

Counterpoints:

• Unreliable - I think this stems from the limitless options. It's Glock syndrome in that the sheer size of the aftermarket means it's more likely that someone will cobble together something that doesn't work. We shouldn't judge Glock's reliability through its aftermarket, so we shouldn't judge blowback 9s because the local PCC shooter has an unreliable gun. I agree that it's a bit annoying to find the right combination of parts, but it's been surprisingly low maintenance since then (I've literally never cleaned my competition blowback AR9s or KP9 and have yet to have an issue).
• No advantage in a PCC over a handgun - if this is the case, then USPSA classifier HHFs would be equivalent. However, PCC classifiers are like 20% higher than Carry Optics. It's a hard division that is relatively easy to classify well in. I can talk for hours on this topic, but that can be saved for a later discussion.
• Better HD options - this ties back to my USPSA experience. If I can run a PCC faster with less practice than a handgun, then I'm objectively better with it. Shotguns do not have enough capacity for me. So that leaves me with the question of why 9mm over a rifle caliber. Personally, I prefer a less concussive cartridge and lower flash signature. Also, I don't have to worry about booking a rifle bay in order to get practice in.

[HeavyDuty]

I built my first 9mm AR PCC to celebrate the end of the AWB. My main reason for making it was the ability to shoot it inexpensively on indoor rental ranges that charge a lot more for rifle, I came to appreciate the increased stability and accuracy it provided but the additional length was annoying. Since then I’ve settled on a Scorpion-K SBR to fill the shoulderable 9mm role.

I’m not a gamer, and after my PCC experience carbine length 9mms don’t make a lot of sense to me - I’m unlikely to ever have another.

[JCN]

When I got my PCC, I did it for the sake of learning how to use a rifle. I wanted time behind the gun and 9 is less cost prohibitive than 556. Also, being able to run it in USPSA gave me an understanding of how to maneuver it at speed. I'm of the opinion that it's the best weapon platform for me within 50 yards and if given a choice, I'd choose a PCC over anything else in a home defense situation.

Hey man, good to see you! Congrats on making GM in PCC too. I'm kind of going down that rabbit hole. It's fun to learn new systems. I want to see you GM revolver and see people's faces when you win a National Championship in that!


Some possible considerations to your counterpoints:

Counterpoints:

• No advantage in a PCC over a handgun - if this is the case, then USPSA classifier HHFs would be equivalent. However, PCC classifiers are like 20% higher than Carry Optics. It's a hard division that is relatively easy to classify well in. I can talk for hours on this topic, but that can be saved for a later discussion.
• Better HD options - this ties back to my USPSA experience. If I can run a PCC faster with less practice than a handgun, then I'm objectively better with it. Shotguns do not have enough capacity for me. So that leaves me with the question of why 9mm over a rifle caliber. Personally, I prefer a less concussive cartridge and lower flash signature. Also, I don't have to worry about booking a rifle bay in order to get practice in.

PCC versus handgun and HHFs: No turn draws for PCC and no "strong hand only" either affects HHF. Also, HHF has fudge factor built in. Production and CO have same HHFs for most things and CO is easier to shoot for most. Single stack minor (10 round capacity) has easier HHFs than Production as well....

Which brings us to the next point: Shooting one handed and having one hand / arm free to do something else in a HD scenario (like open doors, carry a small child, talk to police on a cell phone, etc). So potentially practical reasons at the expense of speed and performance.

And other esoteric things like ballistics and defeating body armor if the attackers were so equipped. Because if you didn't care about ballistics and were just talking about less concussion and lower flash... then we'd all have 22LR home defense weapons, no?

I'm not an Operator and am just a middle aged gamer, so I only shot a suppressed 223 indoors for the first time last month.

But I was super pleased at how nice (non-flashy, non-concussive) it was in no-light conditions even shooting regular (non-flash reduced) ammo was with the suppressor.



Would love it if you posted / elaborated on your overall PCC gaming thoughts for gaming. Is it more "fun" than CO or are you finding the "fun" in learning a new platform / weapon system?