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Thread: PCC, why bother?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter CleverNickname's Avatar
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    I have several PCCs, including a radial-delayed CMMG SBR that I built specifically for USPSA. But I've only shot it in a few matches because every time I go shoot it, my thought is that I should be instead spending the time/money/ammo to get better at shooting handguns. The probability is much higher that I'd use a handgun in self-defense than a long gun, so it makes the most sense to concentrate on handguns. I guess that makes me a Timmy?

  2. #12
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    Idiosyncratic for me. There are no carbine matches with 223 around here, unlike TX (yes, I moved, personal). You can shoot a 'normal' gun like a Ruger PCC (with no threaded barrel) and not some Frankenstein gun to meet our stupid laws. Said gun is also useful in home defense and as I've said - my goal in matches is maintaining skill level for fun and SD uses. I'm not going to win anymore. Ammo is less expensive, easy to shoot.

    Thus a Ruger with an optic in the local USPSA works for me. It's fun and practice with the gun, so that's why I would bother. There were a fair number of folks running 9mm AR-ish and Rugers in TX for the IDPA matches (IDPA - horrors, horrors!).

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I once deployed (did not fire) a carbine in my underwear when some monster truck assholes drove up to my tent and gunned the engine.
    Hey baby, want to see the carbine in my underwear?

    I can deploy it on command. Hahahaha

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleverNickname View Post
    I have several PCCs, including a radial-delayed CMMG SBR that I built specifically for USPSA. But I've only shot it in a few matches because every time I go shoot it, my thought is that I should be instead spending the time/money/ammo to get better at shooting handguns. The probability is much higher that I'd use a handgun in self-defense than a long gun, so it makes the most sense to concentrate on handguns. I guess that makes me a Timmy?
    I hear you. I’m much, much better with a handgun than a long gun so part of me thinks I should be better balanced.

    It was the reason for me to spend time with handguns over shotguns and rifles from a self defense probability standpoint.

    I’d be fine with being GM in pistol and a real M in PCC in terms of distribution of skill.

  5. #15
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    I primarily train with pistols and while that helps with long gun proficiency there is no substitute for recency. Running a PCC as a second gun in USPSA/IDPA gets me handling a long gun more often in close range situations which look more like my real world use for a long gun than 100 yard plus 2 gun or 3 gun stages.

    My original reason for buying a Colt 9mm AR was the nearest / most accessible range at that time only allowed pistol caliber long guns.

    Though the Colt 9mm recoils more than a 5.56, it's cheaper to shoot than 5.56 and I can safely shoot steel with it at much shorter distances.

    Plus one of the two local carbine matches attracts a lot of very weird people who are, lets just say, not your normal competitive shooter types.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post

    Plus one of the two local carbine matches attracts a lot of very weird people who are, lets just say, not your normal competitive shooter types.
    Well, at least one left! Hahaha! We had a tight little squad, were we weird? We did have funny squad shirts!

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Well, at least one left! Hahaha! We had a tight little squad, were we weird? We did have funny squad shirts!
    No, rule nazis and fudds are part of the normal "competition shooter" demographic. Even the brass rat who wandered into @JM Campbell's line of fire during a stage.

    I'm referring to people who are their to train for their version of the civil war/race war / Boogaloo, i.e. those who want only their ethnicity armed, those who want your rifle to become our rifle "our rifle, Comrade" etc

    For what ever reason they don't come to the regular IDPA matches but the carbine match draws them like flies. They try to hide it but they are easy to spot if you know what (or who) you are looking at.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Are you sure it was the primers. The U.S. military uses lead free frangible ammo with bullets made of compressed copper powder. The base local to me has has instructors come down with "Copper fume fever" - a collection of flu like symptoms usually found in Copper miners and smelters resulting from excessive exposure to copper dust or aerosolized copper.
    May not have been the primers.

    This abstract discusses metal toxicity, in particular from copper and zinc, which are the components of jacket material regardless of primer or propellant. I could see how a frangible bullet might release more Cu particulates on its journey down the barrel.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Cell_Cultures

    Passage in here suggests it may not have been the metals in the military training scenario. And Norway, not Sweden.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19116438

    https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/201...7161335383393/

    This one is focusing on propellant. Notes the compounds cited in the Norwegian experience discussed previously.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...prep.201200021

    ------------

    Related tangent: There was a new indoor range put up a few years ago, located extremely conveniently for me. At first, the ventilation was awesome. But they have not maintained the equipment well, and the AQ has decayed to the point that it's not much better than many others around town. I had a sweetheart deal on membership due to signing up pre-opening, but I let it lapse due to the AQ, among other things. Last time I went, I got kinda used to the smell before my session was over, but noticed I could still smell it a couple hours after leaving.

    It's Athena or Saddle River for me from now on, if shooting indoors in Houston.

    Hot Wells has shut down everything but shotgun. I should take some skeet lessons.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    Not another dime.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    May not have been the primers.

    This abstract discusses metal toxicity, in particular from copper and zinc, which are the components of jacket material regardless of primer or propellant. I could see how a frangible bullet might release more Cu particulates on its journey down the barrel.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Cell_Cultures

    Passage in here suggests it may not have been the metals in the military training scenario. And Norway, not Sweden.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19116438

    https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/201...7161335383393/

    This one is focusing on propellant. Notes the compounds cited in the Norwegian experience discussed previously.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...prep.201200021

    ------------

    Related tangent: There was a new indoor range put up a few years ago, located extremely conveniently for me. At first, the ventilation was awesome. But they have not maintained the equipment well, and the AQ has decayed to the point that it's not much better than many others around town. I had a sweetheart deal on membership due to signing up pre-opening, but I let it lapse due to the AQ, among other things. Last time I went, I got kinda used to the smell before my session was over, but noticed I could still smell it a couple hours after leaving.

    It's Athena or Saddle River for me from now on, if shooting indoors in Houston.

    Hot Wells has shut down everything but shotgun. I should take some skeet lessons.
    In the early 90s I remember going to a couple of the older indoor range is in the New York area where the most commonly fired rounds were lead 38 special reloads. Suffice to say an hour or so on those ranges and when you blew your nose it would be black or gray….

  10. #20
    I always say that my 9mm CMMG is the dumbest thing I ever loved. I decided I wanted a PCC, to shoot more for cheaper. Back then I was shooting mostly forty, and there was really no practical way to get one setup in forty. So I caved and got a 9mm, and this is when I was shooting forty, so it felt kinda icky to not only be getting one, but getting it in 9mm.

    Then I started shooting it. I would take it out and we would shoot some of the same steel strings we had setup for pistol, and it was a shitload of fun, and really helped get a good take on what circumstances a carbine really helped (this was way before slide mounted optics were common man stuff). We could shoot the same ammo we had on hand and the simple targets we had on hand. And I may have mentioned this, but it was a shitload of fun. And it wasn't so damn loud, and we could shoot steel closer than you could without high dollar targets AND (ETA: high dollar) frangible ammo.

    I sorta actually dislike the 5.56 cartridge, it just seems like ten pounds of shit (pressure) in a five pound bag (16" barrel). And sure, you can get a two stamp setup for a 11.5" with a can, but that is still not hearing safe, my 9mm is pretty mellow. My 9mm actually helped spark some of my interest in 300BO, that might be the sweet spot of barrel length and blast.

    I think it also gets sold a little short for defensive use, especially for less experienced users. Do we really expect a new gun owner to keep their composure after launching off a 50k PSI cartridge out of a 16" barrel indoors? Sounds to me like the old time stories about the officers trained on 38s flipping out when they shoot 357. If 9mm is reasonably effective out of a pistol it is going to be more reasonably effective out a carbine that is easier to hit with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Plus you get practice clearing lots of malfunctions.
    I think the 9mm AR is probably suffering the same game gun fate as pistols (was 1911, now probably Glocks) that are victims of people who are not even shooting all that well throwing parts at them that would gain a Grand Master a few tenths.

    I bought my CMMG (not a game gun) as separate upper and lower, I originally planned to use a mag well insert but found a lower at what was a good deal during one of the Obama frenzies. I put them together and figured I was good to go, but the thing wouldn't run for shit. And back then there was not much advice on the dang ol internet, but I searched and searched, and finally found a reference to "tuning" the extractor. This means grabbing it with pliers and bending it until it nests up in the BCG where it needs to be. I made one adjustment and the damn thing has never (other than obvious ammo problems) ever failed. This is with the Colt style magazines, when I did this the Glock magazine lowers were new and exotic, by the time they were readily available I didn't have any Glocks and had plenty of Colt style magazines (the ones from Brownells are great).

    So I am a huge fanboi, but will admit that when I bought the thing I felt like I was buying a dildo or something..
    Last edited by mmc45414; 12-28-2021 at 06:14 PM.

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