PCC, why bother?

[JCN]

@Clusterfrack
@GJM

If you guys don’t mind, I would love to have this discussion:

No argument here -- I use a Rattler, 1301/M2, or 5.56 AR carbine. The difference between a service pistol with a dot and a PCC isn't enough for me to deal with the size and considerations of a PCC for defense.

A pistol caliber may be attractive for people that are not skilled with a handgun, or are worried about concussion.

A few thoughts: I don’t shoot PCC, and don’t own one for at least two reasons. I’ll set aside my opinions about PCC as a legitimate USPSA division, and the level of difficulty of PCC classification for a different thread.

1) A reliable gamer PCC is rare, and while the MPX fails regularly, so do all PCCs I’ve seen. Even PCC GMs at Area matches don’t look surprised when their guns fail.

2. (Possibly controversial Timmy reason): At a certain level of skill with a handgun, especially with RDS, a semi-auto PCC is not an advantage anymore.

But why bother when rifle caliber pistols or SBRs work better in every way?

I agree with you both for the utility (or lack thereof) aspect.

Here are my reasons for “why bother” with PCC.

Training and having a comparative skill metric with a long gun analogue.

Just like shooting a 45 ounce gamer pistol, 130PF ammo and reloading with basepad extensions, it’s just part of the game and basic skills translate over pretty well to 20 ounce self defense guns with hotter ammo.

I see the same reasoning for training / gaming with a PCC. I can train high volume with Syntech in a PCC and have leadless primers so I’m not getting increased toxicity. I can use it on a pistol range and I can use it on training steel at closer distances without fragging myself and damaging my targets.

So while my actual self defense choices may be different than my gaming choices, if I keep similar grip angles and manuals of arms I get muscle memory with malfunction clearing, height over bore and holdover issues at differing distances and the ability to compare myself against a database.

For pistol, it’s been motivating for improvement and I find I can apply that to carry equipment fairly seamlessly.

My thought is that if I trained with my X95 9mm in PCC, I’d be better skilled with my 5.56 X95. The last outlaw match I ran both back to back and it was informative.

MPX to MCX would be similar thoughts. I’m resisting the JP because I don’t anticipate changing my home defense rifle to an AR platform. Yet.

So not PCC for PCC sake, just for training analog for improvement.

[Clusterfrack]

Makes sense: PCC as a practice platform for a real rifle caliber. Like a .22 conversion with recoil.

Plus you get practice clearing lots of malfunctions.

[Clusterfrack]

(I’m lucky in having a good local carbine match with challenging terrain and targets to 350yds.)

[Zincwarrior]

*There are far less places where you can rapid fire a carbine.
*9mm is far cheaper.
*PCCs are less loud.
*I can run around a stage with a PCC. There are far fewer carbine matches.

[JCN]

Makes sense: PCC as a practice platform for a real rifle caliber. Like a .22 conversion with recoil.

Plus you get practice clearing lots of malfunctions.

I guess the flip side is that I’d have to clear more malfunctions with 22LR ammo just inherent to the rimfire.

My X95 may not be the most competitive, but it is crazy reliable. I don’t clean it or adjust anything and it runs and runs and runs. Like it’s probably one of the most maintenance free firearms I own.

(I’m lucky in having a good local carbine match with challenging terrain and targets to 350yds.)

See, I don’t hunt and for my narrow self defense theoretical application I have no interest in shooting farther than 50 yards. So I don’t really want a rifle for rifle things. I kind of want an SMG type thing for CQB. IDPA stages with an SBR is kind of how I would envision using a Rattler if I ever needed to for home defense.

[OlongJohnson]

I can train high volume with Syntech in a PCC and have leadless primers so I’m not getting increased toxicity.

Lead-free primers just means lead-free. It does not mean non-toxic.

DAS, because I'm too lazy to dig it up yet again, but the metal compounds used in lead-free primers have been demonstrated to have significantly greater short-term toxicity than lead. If I recall correctly, it was a Swedish military training activity that found personnel were suffering from the toxicity when using lead-free ammo indoors during winter training.

[JCN]

Lead-free primers just means lead-free. It does not mean non-toxic.

DAS, because I'm too lazy to dig it up yet again, but the metal compounds used in lead-free primers have been demonstrated to have significantly greater short-term toxicity than lead. If I recall correctly, it was a Swedish military training activity that found personnel were suffering from the toxicity when using lead-free ammo indoors during winter training.

Good point, I’m wondering if all lead free primers are not created equal.

The Federal unleaded primers are supposedly non-toxic and heavy metal free.

Wondering if what the Swedish military used was different?

[JCN]

@OlongJohnson

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.out...opments/%3Famp



Looks like it was designed to be less toxic per government request.

[HCM]

Lead-free primers just means lead-free. It does not mean non-toxic.

DAS, because I'm too lazy to dig it up yet again, but the metal compounds used in lead-free primers have been demonstrated to have significantly greater short-term toxicity than lead. If I recall correctly, it was a Swedish military training activity that found personnel were suffering from the toxicity when using lead-free ammo indoors during winter training.

Are you sure it was the primers. The U.S. military uses lead free frangible ammo with bullets made of compressed copper powder. The base local to me has has instructors come down with "Copper fume fever" - a collection of flu like symptoms usually found in Copper miners and smelters resulting from excessive exposure to copper dust or aerosolized copper.

[Clusterfrack]

My X95 may not be the most competitive, but it is crazy reliable. I don’t clean it or adjust anything and it runs and runs and runs. Like it’s probably one of the most maintenance free firearms I own.

See, I don’t hunt and for my narrow self defense theoretical application I have no interest in shooting farther than 50 yards. So I don’t really want a rifle for rifle things.

That’s been my experience with my Tavor SAR. It’s just so freaking heavy.

A carbine is my weapon of choice for a fight against multiple opponents, that may occur or evolve outside a structure. This includes Katrina level unrest. Around my home, it’s hard to imagine a fight outside of 100yds. In the backcountry, who knows? I once deployed (did not fire) a carbine in my underwear when some monster truck assholes drove up to my tent and gunned the engine.