PCC, why bother?

[Bergeron]

I’m not a gamer, and after my PCC experience carbine length 9mms don’t make a lot of sense to me - I’m unlikely to ever have another.

I agree that the gun games would be the primary reason to go to carbine length in 9mm. The full size can also make PCC-to-carbine analog training as similar as possible. I originally wanted my PCC to be SBR, but all the extra NFA hassle, and the gun games refusal to allow braced PCC, I settled on 16".

There was a discussion on the JP Rifles Youtube page where the JP team came to the same conclusions. Now there, it's shorter-barreled guns with permanent comps more than 16" fully rifled barrel guns.

Absent NFA and gun game considerations, I'd probably most like something in the 12" range, so the gun could balance compactness with an ability to still feel and manipulate like a full-size.

[JCN]

These are 25 yard doubles with the X95 at sub-20 splits on a 25 yard target.

I would probably be 0.23-25 with an open gun and 0.30-35 with a CO gun to get that.

[ECK]

Its been interesting watching PCC take off. Where I am, it’s not the biggest division (CO is) but it certainly has a loyal following with a couple GMs and rash of M’s. Interesting to note tho, HOA is still the Open guys.

I put a franken-9 together in 2017 when USPSA first announced the division. Being kinda into AR’s for 3-gun, I was drawn to the idea of a 9mm carbine and shot PCC for most of that first year including my Area and Section matches. Coincidently I also jacked up my shooting hand that winter while riding a dirt bike and could not close my strong hand ring finger (gripping a pistol 2-handed was a no-go for about 6 months). So PCC was a good diversion while my right hand healed.

The following year I went back to pistol divisions, partly because I realized my pistol skills were degrading, and I missed shooting them. So now shoot PCC in one or two USPSA matches a year, and mostly relegate the PCC to 3-gun or 2-gun matches in 2x4 division.

It was fun to watch industry respond to PCC’s in 2018-2020, as well as comp shooters experimenting with the best way to tame dot bounce from the blow-back recoil. To some extent the innovation is still on-going with JP and some other companies coming out with their delayed action bolts. Its going to be interesting to see what the next few years brings, other than my franken-9 is probably a relic by now….

[Glock26]

PCC versus handgun and HHFs: No turn draws for PCC and no "strong hand only" either affects HHF. Also, HHF has fudge factor built in. Production and CO have same HHFs for most things and CO is easier to shoot for most. Single stack minor (10 round capacity) has easier HHFs than Production as well....

Which brings us to the next point: Shooting one handed and having one hand / arm free to do something else in a HD scenario (like open doors, carry a small child, talk to police on a cell phone, etc). So potentially practical reasons at the expense of speed and performance.

Having one hand to do something is also possible with a PCC. For non-bullpup PCCs, as long as it's under 6 pounds I'm probably faster than my one-handed handgun. The KP9 is a little too front heavy for me to shoot one handed comfortably, but the ARs are surprisingly compliant. A bullpup might be even better for this situation due to its rear bias, but I haven't tried one myself.

And other esoteric things like ballistics and defeating body armor if the attackers were so equipped. Because if you didn't care about ballistics and were just talking about less concussion and lower flash... then we'd all have 22LR home defense weapons, no?

No joke, if I had a reliable 22LR system that holds 40+ rounds, then I would strongly consider it if rounds can go through 10+ inches of wood. I just got my first 22, so I'll be doing some testing on this subject. As for defeating body armor, I've come to the conclusion to default aim at legs or head. Now, if they come in with a ballistic shield, then I'm dead haha. After seeing your other post, I hope intruders aren't as clever as you. To be honest, I'm just some competition shooter who's never been in a gun fight, so I know nothing. Hopefully, it stays that way.

Would love it if you posted / elaborated on your overall PCC gaming thoughts for gaming. Is it more "fun" than CO or are you finding the "fun" in learning a new platform / weapon system?

I realized that I love shooting way too much (literally selling my golf mat later today). Everything about it is fun. My current active experiments are: (1) NRL22 with no bipod, (2) USPSA Limited G19 using non-dominant side, and (3) USPSA PCC with green laser only. I almost bought a 929 for revolver, so don't tempt me further :P . In terms of PCC gaming, I've witnessed a huge disparity between classifier performance and stage performance. Now to make PCC GM, I would say it requires about the same amount of commitment as CO GM. However, that commitment doesn't translate as well to stage performance. This is because moving with a rifle is different enough from moving with a pistol such that it requires additional training. I commonly see M and GM PCC shooters who don't practice the movement aspect as much. I think this is why there's a perception that PCC classifiers are easy when you see these same guys with slow match times.

[JCS]

Hey man, good to see you! Congrats on making GM in PCC too. I'm kind of going down that rabbit hole. It's fun to learn new systems. I want to see you GM revolver and see people's faces when you win a National Championship in that!


Some possible considerations to your counterpoints:


PCC versus handgun and HHFs: No turn draws for PCC and no "strong hand only" either affects HHF. Also, HHF has fudge factor built in. Production and CO have same HHFs for most things and CO is easier to shoot for most. Single stack minor (10 round capacity) has easier HHFs than Production as well....

Which brings us to the next point: Shooting one handed and having one hand / arm free to do something else in a HD scenario (like open doors, carry a small child, talk to police on a cell phone, etc). So potentially practical reasons at the expense of speed and performance.

And other esoteric things like ballistics and defeating body armor if the attackers were so equipped. Because if you didn't care about ballistics and were just talking about less concussion and lower flash... then we'd all have 22LR home defense weapons, no?

I'm not an Operator and am just a middle aged gamer, so I only shot a suppressed 223 indoors for the first time last month.

But I was super pleased at how nice (non-flashy, non-concussive) it was in no-light conditions even shooting regular (non-flash reduced) ammo was with the suppressor.



Would love it if you posted / elaborated on your overall PCC gaming thoughts for gaming. Is it more "fun" than CO or are you finding the "fun" in learning a new platform / weapon system?

Having one hand to do something is also possible with a PCC. For non-bullpup PCCs, as long as it's under 6 pounds I'm probably faster than my one-handed handgun. The KP9 is a little too front heavy for me to shoot one handed comfortably, but the ARs are surprisingly compliant. A bullpup might be even better for this situation due to its rear bias, but I haven't tried one myself.



No joke, if I had a reliable 22LR system that holds 40+ rounds, then I would strongly consider it if rounds can go through 10+ inches of wood. I just got my first 22, so I'll be doing some testing on this subject. As for defeating body armor, I've come to the conclusion to default aim at legs or head. Now, if they come in with a ballistic shield, then I'm dead haha. After seeing your other post, I hope intruders aren't as clever as you. To be honest, I'm just some competition shooter who's never been in a gun fight, so I know nothing. Hopefully, it stays that way.



I realized that I love shooting way too much (literally selling my golf mat later today). Everything about it is fun. My current active experiments are: (1) NRL22 with no bipod, (2) USPSA Limited G19 using non-dominant side, and (3) USPSA PCC with green laser only. I almost bought a 929 for revolver, so don't tempt me further :P . In terms of PCC gaming, I've witnessed a huge disparity between classifier performance and stage performance. Now to make PCC GM, I would say it requires about the same amount of commitment as CO GM. However, that commitment doesn't translate as well to stage performance. This is because moving with a rifle is different enough from moving with a pistol such that it requires additional training. I commonly see M and GM PCC shooters who don't practice the movement aspect as much. I think this is why there's a perception that PCC classifiers are easy when you see these same guys with slow match times.

Would you be willing to share your PCC build that has been reliable?

[JCN]

I realized that I love shooting way too much (literally selling my golf mat later today). Everything about it is fun. My current active experiments are: (1) NRL22 with no bipod, (2) USPSA Limited G19 using non-dominant side, and (3) USPSA PCC with green laser only. I almost bought a 929 for revolver, so don't tempt me further :P . In terms of PCC gaming, I've witnessed a huge disparity between classifier performance and stage performance. Now to make PCC GM, I would say it requires about the same amount of commitment as CO GM. However, that commitment doesn't translate as well to stage performance. This is because moving with a rifle is different enough from moving with a pistol such that it requires additional training. I commonly see M and GM PCC shooters who don't practice the movement aspect as much. I think this is why there's a perception that PCC classifiers are easy when you see these same guys with slow match times.

I think we are brothers from another mother.

I’ve been working left handed single stack lol.

I think some of the thoughts of soft PCC classification may be holdovers from the inception to the 2019 HHF adjustment.

I’ve heard it used to be ridiculously easy in the beginning from 2017-2019 with that regard.

I have a 929 built by Eli of TK to be exactly like Michael Poggie’s national winning revolver if you want to borrow it for a run at it…..

[Glock26]

Would you be willing to share your PCC build that has been reliable?

• JP 9mm BCG (My Faxon BCG also works with its weight slug removed)
• KYN-RB5007 Hydraulic Buffer
• SPRINCO Blue AR15 Carbine Spring
• Hiperfire Hipertouch Eclipse Trigger

As long as the BCG and trigger fit into the lower/upper receiver set, then it should be 100% for 100-160 PF ammo (124-135 gr RN bullets) through 4.5"-10.5" barrels (combos that I've tested). I've used Aero Precision Upper/FMP-9B Lower set and the JP receiver set cannibalized from my GMR-15.

[mmc45414]

With all of the build talk, I might mention that I added the Stack of Quarters spacer to mine when I was trying to get it to work. I think this is primarily to lessen the impact on the bolt hold open device by shortening the run the bolt has prior to hitting it. Have no idea if it helps cycling also but might, so I mention it.

[Clusterfrack]

Once again, at last Sunday's USPSA match, PCCs won the Most Unreliable Gun award. Without some voodoo that people at my clubs lack, 9mm PCCs of a wide range of types are about as reliable as a damp muzzleloader. Factory ammunition and reloads that "always worked before" jammed (FTF and double feeds). Glock 33 mags fell out because the catch ledge had been chewed up. It was funny at first, but got really tiresome because of the delays.

[jh9]

Once again, at last Sunday's USPSA match, PCCs won the Most Unreliable Gun award. Without some voodoo that people at my clubs lack, 9mm PCCs of a wide range of types are about as reliable as a damp muzzleloader. Factory ammunition and reloads that "always worked before" jammed (FTF and double feeds)...

Kinda feel that way about rimfire guns at steel challenge matches.

To the larger topic I think the recurring theme about "if you're really good with a pistol, PCC isn't that much better" is missing one important ingredient: you're really good with a pistol now. Put it down for a year or two and that's probably not going to be the case anymore. Coming up on 30 years ago that I shot my first USPSA match as a junior. I've seen a lot of rockstar GMs show up, git gud and then flame out. It is a small cadre of people I know that were active then and still even somewhat active now.

If your justification for any of this is to keep some sort of familiarity with a defensive tool, the notion that a PCC is easier to (re)build skill on and easier to maintain skill with isn't something that should be dismissed out of hand. If today's your day, nobody's going to care that you were a A/M/GM 10 years ago. The only thing that matters is how you perform on demand, today. And if there's a tool that helps you do that after life gets in the way, be it because of an injury, burn out or just boredom, then I think that's worth knowing.

After the riots of 2020 I wonder how many used-to-be's were thinking about that Open gun they sold a decade ago or the last time they actually shot under any pressure. It's a perishable skill, and not everybody is going to have the disposition that lets them keep it going, decade in and decade out. Knowing where the easy button is so you can get back to something that resembles a fighting weight as quickly as possible has a lot of value IMO.