I'd quibble this a bit and say that it gets WAY harder to take shots to the head as folks get older. I think hitting pads or the bag compared to grappling with an opponent is actually easier on one's body as they age.Originally Posted by HCM
I'd quibble this a bit and say that it gets WAY harder to take shots to the head as folks get older. I think hitting pads or the bag compared to grappling with an opponent is actually easier on one's body as they age.
I could see that with pads or speed bag but my hands won't tolerate punching the heavy bag regularly anymore.
Hands, elbows, AND shoulders.
Absolutely. I am fortunate to have started my first striking art while still in middle school, so I have a *lot* of laurel to rest upon. And I hear the earned testimony of SMEs like Cecil that striking is hard on the joints, eg. shoulders, wrists. That said, I’m getting my ass-kicked injury-wise in basic, bonehead BJJ. Frankly, I’ve spent more time off due to injury than I have on the mat. That’s what I get for *starting* BJJ at age 49, 4 years ago. Even in boxing, all I got was a bunch of fat and split lips, some puffy eyes, and a few painful trouncings at the hands of the resident USA amateur champ in “controlled sparring” (translation: all of us willing doofuses tried to take his block off, and he danced around taking his toll on our midsections until the bell’s sweet, sweet mercy rang for us…).
I can still hit a heavy bag hard enough that people stop and do the RCA dog thing, looking at my skinny, old-guy frame, and the bag, but I’m really only good for 3 fundamental classes with a few moderate open rolls per week, max, in the No-gi place if I want to be able to function at work.
Sort of reminds me of people who grew up dirt biking or skiing, vs folks who take up skiing in middle age or buy a new Harley as their first bike after age 40. Anyone who cut their teeth in the dirt as a kid has no problem with the rear wheel on their Street Bob 114™️ slipping around on a gravel road, while the midlife crisis docs and US bank VPs can’t back the things out of a parking space without an adrenaline rush.
In BJJ, I’m that outlaw poser white collar Harley buyer.
All to say, I think there is a price to be paid for proficiency in *anything* worth learning, and that price becomes a lot steeper as one ages. I’m constantly eyeing the boxing workouts the next room over, with the ladder work and speed drills and mitt work, after puking up a lung during BJJ warmups, much less rolling—thinking that I’d love to go back to the pain I know because I’m not tough enough for this grappling shit.
So, I don’t know. I’m not disagreeing with you, but I can say that my experience is different.
ETA: Craig, who would know, posted shorter and better while I was typing my long-ass post and flirting with the coffeeshop staff. What he said.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
I agree to some degree but would like to add: Good stretching exercises help me a lot. There I posted some of my favorites. Stretching and cardio training can keep one fitter than some guys who are 10 or even 20 years younger.
What does "rolling" mean in this context? (I'm not a native English speaker nor BJJ practitioner.)
Last edited by P30; 12-28-2021 at 03:31 PM.
I spent almost exactly five years training at a large competitive MT program before switching full time to bjj. I was a sparring partner for many guys in camp during that time although I never fought above the inter-gym “smoker” level.
Some opinions to consider:
1. Good MT is much more difficult to find in the U.S. than good bjj. Most “MT” programs are really crappy kickboxing run by someone with almost zero actual ring experience. BJJ taught by real black belts is popping up everywhere.
2. Even the decent MT programs don’t emphasize clinching because most amateur leagues in the U.S. have rules that don’t allow many clinching techniques like elbows, sweeps, and throws. While MT clinching is different from self defense Greco style clinching, IME it was very easily translated once I was shown the different emphases and it helped me a lot in EWO for example.
3. I was in my mid thirties when I started MT and age was a huge factor. The repetitive nature of the small number of movements was a joint killer for me. Shoulders and hip flexors particularly. For example it’s common to throw several hundred kicks per leg in a class. Done carefully I’ve had many less injuries in bjj. The Thais do a great job of keeping training playful but IME most American coaches don’t follow that model.
4. Head trauma is scary. Working in the counter IED world for so long I learned a lot about repetitive head trauma. It was constantly on my mind. Even in a good “playful” Thai style program accidents happen, people lose their temper momentarily, etc.
I truly love both bjj and real traditional MT so it’s hard to pick one. But if I had to choose I’d pick bjj. If you could even find a good MT program there is less room for beginners mistakes IMO and so many civilian regular guy self defense scenarios require the aggressor to put hands on you to accomplish their goals.
Just some things to consider.
Thank you for the reminder. I suppose I should forget about "good old boxing" (need my brain for earning my money).
Last edited by P30; 12-28-2021 at 03:58 PM.
In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, “rolling” is an all-encompassing term for sparring or drilling at varying degrees of intensity.
In the context of my post, it refers to non-consensual sparring with a variety of training partners in an ongoing attempt to incorporate the concepts and techniques worked on in fundamentals class, for roughly 5 minutes at a time.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
That one-eyed man comment is gold. To me, BJJ is like assymetrical warfare - it's astonishing how many attack vectors that discipline can teach you. If I could master one martial art, it would be BJJ (and I have 25 years of off and on boxing experience).The first reason is that learning the movement mechanics to minimize and impose friction in the horizontal plane of fighting is the most counterintuitive thing one can learn to do. 6 months of BJJ can literally make you the one-eyed man in the land of the blind in a real world event.
Secondly as far as self defense goes, any pugilistic exchange is literally a puncher's chance. Notice the emphasis on exchange.....not striking or kneeing entangled (dirty boxing), not striking out to escape or a weapon, nor striking into a clinch.
Holding a traditional range of pugilism/boxing/kickboxing and exchanging like one learns in Muay Thai is extremely limited as a cross-over modality to self defense in my opinion.
However, every time I try BJJ I get injured. One of the challenges is that, at least as I have experienced it, you are sparring (rolling) from day 1. I am not sure that is such a good idea for people coming right off the street that are out of shape and have no skill, especially if you are rolling with someone else in the same situation. Even worse if you have pre-existing injuries you are trying to manage. In boxing, (again as I have experienced it), you need a good 4 months of heavy training to get a base before even getting in the ring. Once you are in the ring, you are watched by at least one coach. You can still get hurt, but at least you have more of a base and controlled environment when going full contact. Also, as been mentioned, the older you get the less you are going to want to risk your brain cells on a regular basis.
Boxing is fantastic for fitness and if you are just working out, you can manage how hard you hit the bags and which exercise do and don't work with your body. Its the only excercise I really enjoy doing but again, I don't do it for self-defense.
As far as boxing for self-defense, I dont' recommend it when people ask. As Craig alluded to, the application is limited and you are probably more likely to get yourself into situations you maybe shouldn't be in. If you get some fighting or sparring experience, it can help with your confidence and avoiding fights if you don't have a hot head. But I always tell people to invest in continual gun training first and foremost and skip the unarmed stuff until you get the first priority down.
Really, I think Craig has the best approach I have experienced - learn enough grappling to be able to get to your weapon and understand the stages of a fight and when it is appropriate to pull your weapon. I wish more gun training would take a more holistic approach beyond shooting to address managing violent encounters. The best gun training I have had to date is working through scenarios with simunitions.
I find no quarrel with anything posted by @FPS above. Spot on, IMO.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
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