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Thread: Experienced LEO opinions wanted.

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    *IF* that's true, then it's nothing to do with Terry stops. That's failure to know the law, which is not a bright line "no" versus a mistake in fact which is ok if reasonable. Mistake in fact are things like shooting someone holding an airsoft gun like a real gun.

    I'm not really sure I understand the question. Reasonable suspicion can't be as simply legislated/judiciated as "if X than Y" because there's a nearly infinite amount of variables. I can develop reasonable suspicion for a stop where another officer may not, and vice versa, based on training and experience. If Officer DopeHound in Interdiction has multiple training classes and years of experience at interdiction, he's likely to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion on factors that Det. DeskRider in Financial Crimes would never notice. You can't legislate that specifically.
    I used to get called for open air sniffs all the time. Since the Rodriguez case Officers have “the time it takes to conduct a traffic stop” which includes contacting the driver, running checks, and writing a citation etc to wait for a dog. If it’s just a civil citation generally speaking it’s about 15 minutes absent reasonable suspicion. And yeah the Officer better be writing a citation while I was on the way.

    That’s basically I stopped a guy for a traffic violation and I think he might have dope in the car but nothing to articulate it. With reasonable suspicion it’s up to two hours. Is there reasonable suspicion the driver is impaired? If so now add Field Sobriety Tests to the time.

    Sometimes it was a fine line and it was up to me and the other handlers to decide whether to run the dog. I was pretty conservative with it because the County Attorney was using Rodriguez to dismiss cases. Some guys were great because they used my dog a lot and I’d brief them on what I needed to justify running a dog. Some I’d get there right at 15 minutes which is the gray area and I’d ask if they had written a citation. Nope so it was no cite no open air sniff.

    On any open air sniff I always spoke to the primary Officer to brief me on what he had before running my dog. Most guys who like working dope are great about articulating reasonable suspicion to justify detaining a driver while waiting for a dog to arrive and thoroughly document it. A few are great at articulating it at the scene but fall down when writing the report. It’s a problem if my supplement has more reasonable suspicion articulated then the primary Officer.

    I went to court one time for a paraphernalia case. The primary Officer briefed me on what he had. Multiple people in the car multiple checks on them. One had a warrant and was hostile/aggressive. Multiple Officers on scene dealing with it. He stopped a car leaving a dope house after a short stay at a dope house in a high crime/narcotic area. The driver with a drug history didn’t consent to a search. Long story short my dog sniffed the car and alerted. Drug paraphernalia was found inside and arrest was made.

    When the Officer wrote his report he didn’t document a lot of it. I documented a lot in my supplement including what he told me to justify the stop. The Prosecutor drops the case after we all showed up for court. Afterwards he told us why. He and the primary got into a heated argument up to the point where me and the other Officer were giving each other oh shit looks. I was fairly quiet until he threw down an unjustified dog sniff. I asked him if he’d read my supplement? Of course he said no. I told him don’t tell me what I did wasn’t justified when you didn’t even bother to read my articulations. He didn’t have much time for me at that point otherwise I’d have probably given him an earful. The primary guy had the case on the street but he was weak preparing for court.

    One short story about me and traffic law. If you haven’t looked at your states traffic code take a look at it and see how much is in there. Anyway I had twelve years on and had just returned to the streets after five years. I stopped a beat up street sweeper for not having a license plate. The driver told me no plate needed. My Sergeant was a former motor. I called him and asked. Yep street sweepers are exempt for plates. You learn something new every day. I apologized to the driver and sent him on his way. Even experienced Officers can make mistakes or not know a particular code in traffic law. This was prior to recording stops for YouTube thankfully.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    I don't think Terry is vague at all, I think it spells out the requirements to be met quite well. It tells the officer what they need to address in their decision-making. Detective McFarland did a solid job with that.

    As has been mentioned, the stop does not equal the frisk. If anything, officers need to do a better job addressing those decisions. Sometimes it is just a pat search for officer safety and you should realize you're likely to lose anything you find.

    There is a very well done, easy to read in a short period of time book on Terry et al. Stop and Frisk: Legal perspectives, strategic thinking, and tactical procedures by Doug Mitchell & Greg Connor with the foreword by Prof. Wayne LaFave 3rd Edition ... https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Frisk-Do...dp/1138302961/
    I'm a wee bit biased about the book. Doug's a friend.

  3. #13
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    Erick,

    Totally forgot about that work. Just ordered another copy.
    "Knowledge is good." Emil Faber, date unknown.

  4. #14
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    I don't think Terry is vague at all, I think it spells out the requirements to be met quite well. It tells the officer what they need to address in their decision-making. Detective McFarland did a solid job with that.

    As has been mentioned, the stop does not equal the frisk. If anything, officers need to do a better job addressing those decisions. Sometimes it is just a pat search for officer safety and you should realize you're likely to lose anything you find.

    There is a very well done, easy to read in a short period of time book on Terry et al. Stop and Frisk: Legal perspectives, strategic thinking, and tactical procedures by Doug Mitchell & Greg Connor with the foreword by Prof. Wayne LaFave 3rd Edition ... https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Frisk-Do...dp/1138302961/
    I'm a wee bit biased about the book. Doug's a friend.
    Not dismissing or criticizing the book at all, but the problem with books on 4th amendment issues, as well as some other topics, is that the law changes frequently and does not change uniformly across judicial circuits. As an example, in some jurisdictions, the "armed and dangerous" suspicion warranting a frisk means suspicion a person is armed and also dangerous, while in others, the courts feel armed = dangerous. Various courts are also now struggling with whether being armed justifies a Terry stop in a state where gun carry is lightly regulated vs. severely regulated. In a related area, just last yer the Supreme Court issued an opinion that says or suggests that an application of physical force means a person is seized, even if they don't yield to that force / continue flight. A fairly limited situation that may not often mean much, but my point is that, unless updated frequently, any book on judicially-created law can be out of date quickly. That is why a La Fave S&S 6th edition set sells for $1200 new but a 4th or 5th edition is $300-$400, and why there are annual updates to the set. I revise my academy teaching materials at least twice a year due to state and federal opinions.

    Not saying you should not buy the book; just a cautionary note. And I guess while I am being Mr. negative, I have seen numerous "felon in possession" cases get dumped due to unjustified or poorly articulated frisks, and conducting a search or seizure without RS can get your POST certification suspended or revoked where I live.

    It isn't getting easier.

  5. #15
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    Teaching articulation to new cops (and just plain talking to people in general) is one of the greatest challenges in LE training.
    "Knowledge is good." Emil Faber, date unknown.

  6. #16
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason M View Post
    Teaching articulation to new cops (and just plain talking to people in general) is one of the greatest challenges in LE training.
    And interviewing...

    (As much art as it is science and law, imho.)
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  7. #17
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason M View Post
    Teaching articulation to new cops (and just plain talking to people in general) is one of the greatest challenges in LE training.
    Even more so since texting replaced talking.

    Academy Instructor:"go ahead and initiate a consensual contact that person...." Recruit: (Look of terror accompanied by obvious gastrointestinal distress, followed by throat clearing and some sounds vaguely reminiscent of the English language)

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason M View Post
    Teaching articulation to new cops (and just plain talking to people in general) is one of the greatest challenges in LE training.
    This is a timely thread. Yesterday I was teaching search and seizure in our local academy and we spent most of the day covering Terry and much of that time was about the articulation of the reason for the stop and how important that was. The lesson plan gives scenarios where they have to decide whether there was RAS or not. Then I make them defend their answer and play the defense attorney in a suppression hearing. Good times.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
    www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com

  9. #19
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    This is a timely thread. Yesterday I was teaching search and seizure in our local academy and we spent most of the day covering Terry and much of that time was about the articulation of the reason for the stop and how important that was. The lesson plan gives scenarios where they have to decide whether there was RAS or not. Then I make them defend their answer and play the defense attorney in a suppression hearing. Good times.
    Next class begins in a few weeks for me. I keep trying to incorporate more scenarios into S&S, but it is hard with the time limits and so much to cover. I think I need about 4 more hours, but that isn't going to happen.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post
    Next class begins in a few weeks for me. I keep trying to incorporate more scenarios into S&S, but it is hard with the time limits and so much to cover. I think I need about 4 more hours, but that isn't going to happen.
    Unfortunately I only sub for that topic. A judge teaches it mostly and he doesn’t do scenarios. Just lecture and stories. But I do what I can when I fill in. I know the students enjoy it from their feedback.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
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